DEBATE: Is prayer to Mary & the saints worship?

WHich means absolutely NOTHING.

You seem to forget that before a person can be a "Canonized Saint" in the Roman Catholic system, they have to cough up TWO "verifiable miracles" as the result of prayers directed to them specifically to be considered to have enough "clout" with Father to merit the title: "SAINT".

The Bible tells Physically ALIVE Christians to pray for other PHYSICALLY ALIVE Christians. You'd know that if you ever read your Bible.
Scripture says that the dead are still alive:
But even Moses showed in the burning bush passage that the dead are raised, when he called the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ For He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to Him.” Luke 20:37-38 NKJV

Scripture says that Christians should pray for others, and there is nothing in scripture that says that intercession ends with earthly life:
. . . I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men . . . 1 Tim 2:1

Scripture says the faithfully departed surround us as a cloud witnesses:
. . . we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us. Hebrews 12:1

Revelation makes it clear that the angels and saints in heaven are aware of events on earth, and they join in prayer with those on earth:

Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. Revelation 5:8

. . . every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying:

“Blessing and honor and glory and power
Be to Him who sits on the throne,
And to the Lamb, forever and ever!”
Revelation 5:13

The angels and saints in heaven are aware of our petitions and continue to pray for us and with us.
 
Last edited:
Orthodox don't believe in purgatory.
Orthodox do pray for the departed.

I would point out that many Protestant funeral services include similar prayers for the departed as well. Here is an excerpt from a Methodist funeral service:

Into your hands, O merciful Savior,
we commend your servant Name.
Acknowledge, we humbly beseech you,
a sheep of your own fold,
a lamb of your own flock,
a sinner of your own redeeming.
Receive Name into the arms of your mercy,
into the blessed rest of everlasting peace,
and into the glorious company of the saints of light. Amen
 
It's part of the Septuagint, the Greek Old Testament that the Greek speaking Jews used, but most importantly, the early Christians.
It is not consider the real word of God by Hebrew speaking Jewish people and Jesus was a Hebrew speaking Jewish person. The early believers like Peter and his gang spoke Hebrew. Even today Hebrew scripture are considered the real thing by the Jewish people.
 
It is not consider the real word of God by Hebrew speaking Jewish people and Jesus was a Hebrew speaking Jewish person.
Actually, Jesus spoke Aramaic since that was the language that was spoken in Palestine as well as Greek I'm sure since it was the lingua franca of the area. And yes, Greek speaking Jews saw the Septuagint as "the real word of God".
The early believers like Peter and his gang spoke Hebrew.
Aramaic was the spoken language of the region, not Hebrew. Hebrew was a "dead" language, like Latin is today. Hebrew was used probably in the synagogue and the temple but not as a common, spoken language.

Even today Hebrew scripture are considered the real thing by the Jewish people.
Not all. Ethiopian Jews use the Septuagint to this day. Plus, Orthodox are Christian, not Jewish, so the Jewish religion can use whatever Old Testament Scripture they like.
 
Why??? the "Departed" are either in Heaven, and don't need your prayers, of in HELL and well beyond the effect of them.
Yes, that is a modern tradition that has developed in the west. Of course, some go a step further and take a Calvinist position that God has predestined the living to either heaven or hell from the beginning of time. Prayers for the living would be equally worthless based on that logic.

The reality is that Jews at the time of Christ prayed for the departed and Christians continued the practice, which confirms the belief in the resurrection.

If you doubt that consider Paul's for Onesiphorus and is household. From the context Onesiphorus is already dead:

May the Lord show mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, because he often refreshed me and was not ashamed of my chains. On the contrary, when he was in Rome, he searched hard for me until he found me. May the Lord grant that he will find mercy from the Lord on that day! You know very well in how many ways he helped me in Ephesus. 2 Tim 1-16-18
 
Yes, that is a modern tradition that has developed in the west. Of course, some go a step further and take a Calvinist position that God has predestined the living to either heaven or hell from the beginning of time. Prayers for the living would be equally worthless based on that logic.

The reality is that Jews at the time of Christ prayed for the departed and Christians continued the practice, which confirms the belief in the resurrection.

If you doubt that consider Paul's for Onesiphorus and is household. From the context Onesiphorus is already dead:
WHO CARES what "some do". "Some" believe that if you don't go to church on Saturday, you're not saved.
 
WHO CARES what "some do". "Some" believe that if you don't go to church on Saturday, you're not saved.
I care about what the apostles did and taught, and Paul included a prayer for the dead in his letter.
Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ. 1 Cor 11:1 NKJV

Questions about the intercession of saints and prayers for the dead are both related to the canon of scripture.

The Orthodox and Catholic Old Testaments are based on the scriptures used by Greek-speaking Jews, who were among the earliest Christian converts. These were the scriptures of Timothy and the Bereans, and they have been used by Greek-speaking Christians ever since.

In contrast, modern Protestant bibles follow the canon of Jews who rejected Christ. The clearest scriptural support the value of prayers for the dead and the intercession of saints are found in the books that Protestant bibles deleted, and that was a big factor in their deletion.
 
Last edited:
The clearest scriptural support the value of prayers for the dead and the intercession of saints are found in the books that Protestant bibles deleted, and that was a big factor in their deletion.
Because it's a total LIE. When physical life ends, the die is cast, and we go to out predetermined destinations. That a Jewish writing would suggest otherwise, automatically disqualifies it as being Spiritually valid.

Remember that the Jews were SO UTTERLY IGNORANT of God's plan that when their Redeemer came, they didn't recognize Him, and ended up MURDERING HIM in their ignorance.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mik
Remember that the Jews were SO UTTERLY IGNORANT of God's plan that when their Redeemer came, they didn't recognize Him, and ended up MURDERING HIM in their ignorance.
Paul was a Jew. So were the apostles and the authors of the New Testament. Many Jews welcomed Jesus and his teaching.

The Old Testament of Orthodox and Catholic bibles is based on the Jewish scriptures of the Bereans, Timothy and early Greek-speaking Jewish converts to Christianity. The Greek scriptures were also most quoted by New Testament authors and are found in the earliest Christian bibles.

On the other hand, the modern Protestant bibles use a canon based on the scriptures of the Pharisees, even though many of the Pharisees were terribly wrong about Jesus.

Why should Christians exclusively use the scriptures of the Pharisees over the version used by the apostles and early Christians?
 
On the other hand, the modern Protestant bibles use a canon based on the scriptures of the Pharisees, even though many of the Pharisees were terribly wrong about Jesus.

Why should Christians exclusively use the scriptures of the Pharisees over the version used by the apostles and early Christians?
Other than the lack of several worthless books, which teach NOTHING of value, what do we LOSE by eliminating them??
 
Back
Top