ziapueblo
Active member
Orthodox don't believe in purgatory.
DEBATE: Is prayer to Mary & the saints worship?
- Thread starter BornAgainRN
- Start date
Bob Carabbio
Well-known member
GOOD!!! You got that one right, now get rid of the useless "Deuterocanonicals", and concentrate on the REAL word of God.
No it isn't.
Theophilos
Well-known member
Scripture says that the dead are still alive:
But even Moses showed in the burning bush passage that the dead are raised, when he called the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ For He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to Him.” Luke 20:37-38 NKJV
Scripture says that Christians should pray for others, and there is nothing in scripture that says that intercession ends with earthly life:
. . . I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men . . . 1 Tim 2:1
Scripture says the faithfully departed surround us as a cloud witnesses:
. . . we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us. Hebrews 12:1
Revelation makes it clear that the angels and saints in heaven are aware of events on earth, and they join in prayer with those on earth:
Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. Revelation 5:8
. . . every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying:
“Blessing and honor and glory and power
Be to Him who sits on the throne,
And to the Lamb, forever and ever!” Revelation 5:13
The angels and saints in heaven are aware of our petitions and continue to pray for us and with us.
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Theophilos
Well-known member
Orthodox do pray for the departed.
I would point out that many Protestant funeral services include similar prayers for the departed as well. Here is an excerpt from a Methodist funeral service:
Into your hands, O merciful Savior,
we commend your servant Name.
Acknowledge, we humbly beseech you,
a sheep of your own fold,
a lamb of your own flock,
a sinner of your own redeeming.
Receive Name into the arms of your mercy,
into the blessed rest of everlasting peace,
and into the glorious company of the saints of light. Amen
A SERVICE OF DEATH AND RESURRECTION
An agency of The United Methodist Church, Discipleship Ministries helps local church, district, and conference leaders fulfill the shared dream of making world-changing disciples. The agency connects leaders with needed resourcing, training, consulting, and networking that support spiritual…www.umcdiscipleship.org
Bob Carabbio
Well-known member
Why??? the "Departed" are either in Heaven, and don't need your prayers, of in HELL and well beyond the effect of them.
ziapueblo
Active member
The Deuterocanonicals? We Orthodox just call them Scripture, the REAL Word of God.
ziapueblo
Active member
It's part of the Septuagint, the Greek Old Testament that the Greek speaking Jews used, but most importantly, the early Christians.
It is not consider the real word of God by Hebrew speaking Jewish people and Jesus was a Hebrew speaking Jewish person. The early believers like Peter and his gang spoke Hebrew. Even today Hebrew scripture are considered the real thing by the Jewish people.
Bob Carabbio
Well-known member
No problem - since there's nothing in them of value, do what you want with 'em.
Bob Carabbio
Well-known member
And so they are, either in Heaven or Hell - depending.
Only A "denominational theological assumption", with nothing bu "Religious Tradition" to support it
ziapueblo
Active member
Actually, Jesus spoke Aramaic since that was the language that was spoken in Palestine as well as Greek I'm sure since it was the lingua franca of the area. And yes, Greek speaking Jews saw the Septuagint as "the real word of God".
Aramaic was the spoken language of the region, not Hebrew. Hebrew was a "dead" language, like Latin is today. Hebrew was used probably in the synagogue and the temple but not as a common, spoken language.
Not all. Ethiopian Jews use the Septuagint to this day. Plus, Orthodox are Christian, not Jewish, so the Jewish religion can use whatever Old Testament Scripture they like.
ziapueblo
Active member
If you say so.
Bob Carabbio
Well-known member
You obviously have no argument. What's the value YOU see in 'em???? What are the rest of us MISSING because we consider them worthless??
Anything??
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Theophilos
Well-known member
Yes, that is a modern tradition that has developed in the west. Of course, some go a step further and take a Calvinist position that God has predestined the living to either heaven or hell from the beginning of time. Prayers for the living would be equally worthless based on that logic.
The reality is that Jews at the time of Christ prayed for the departed and Christians continued the practice, which confirms the belief in the resurrection.
If you doubt that consider Paul's for Onesiphorus and is household. From the context Onesiphorus is already dead:
Bob Carabbio
Well-known member
WHO CARES what "some do". "Some" believe that if you don't go to church on Saturday, you're not saved.
Theophilos
Well-known member
I care about what the apostles did and taught, and Paul included a prayer for the dead in his letter.
Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ. 1 Cor 11:1 NKJV
Questions about the intercession of saints and prayers for the dead are both related to the canon of scripture.
The Orthodox and Catholic Old Testaments are based on the scriptures used by Greek-speaking Jews, who were among the earliest Christian converts. These were the scriptures of Timothy and the Bereans, and they have been used by Greek-speaking Christians ever since.
In contrast, modern Protestant bibles follow the canon of Jews who rejected Christ. The clearest scriptural support the value of prayers for the dead and the intercession of saints are found in the books that Protestant bibles deleted, and that was a big factor in their deletion.
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Bob Carabbio
Well-known member
Because it's a total LIE. When physical life ends, the die is cast, and we go to out predetermined destinations. That a Jewish writing would suggest otherwise, automatically disqualifies it as being Spiritually valid.
Remember that the Jews were SO UTTERLY IGNORANT of God's plan that when their Redeemer came, they didn't recognize Him, and ended up MURDERING HIM in their ignorance.
Theophilos
Well-known member
Paul was a Jew. So were the apostles and the authors of the New Testament. Many Jews welcomed Jesus and his teaching.
The Old Testament of Orthodox and Catholic bibles is based on the Jewish scriptures of the Bereans, Timothy and early Greek-speaking Jewish converts to Christianity. The Greek scriptures were also most quoted by New Testament authors and are found in the earliest Christian bibles.
On the other hand, the modern Protestant bibles use a canon based on the scriptures of the Pharisees, even though many of the Pharisees were terribly wrong about Jesus.
Why should Christians exclusively use the scriptures of the Pharisees over the version used by the apostles and early Christians?
Bob Carabbio
Well-known member
Other than the lack of several worthless books, which teach NOTHING of value, what do we LOSE by eliminating them??