DEBATE: Is prayer to Mary & the saints worship?

The link is from the Orthodox Church in America. It is not a Catholic denomination.
So.
Was Jesus acting as a medium when Eliajah and Moses appeared to on the mountain top?
Jesus is God.
Were the apostles participating in witchcraft?
SMH...Really trying to justify your belief in praying to to dead.
My observation is that Old Testament commands such as this are directed against pagan practices, not Jewish practices. For example, casting lots may be considered a form of divination, but God commanded the casting of lots according to Leviticus. The apostles cast of lots to determine the replacement for Judas.

Then Aaron shall cast lots for the two goats: one lot for the Lord and the other lot for the scapegoat. Leviticus 16:8

. . . they cast their lots, and the lot fell on Matthias. Acts 1:26
Nobody praying to the dead, which is forbidden (Sinful)
Deuteronomy 18:10-13 urges: “Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD; because of these same detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you. You must be blameless before the LORD your God.”

Will you continue to say' "Did God really say...?
 
So.

Jesus is God.

SMH...Really trying to justify your belief in praying to to dead.

Nobody praying to the dead, which is forbidden (Sinful)
Deuteronomy 18:10-13 urges: “Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD; because of these same detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you. You must be blameless before the LORD your God.”

Will you continue to say' "Did God really say...?
Yes, I still see no response to my question.

Did Jesus and the apostles violate the Old Testament law that you quote when Moses and Elijah appeared and talked with them?

A similar issue occurred when Jesus healed a man and told him to pick up his bed on the Sabbath:

Jesus said to him, “Rise, take up your bed and walk.” And immediately the man was made well, took up his bed, and walked.

And that day was the Sabbath. The Jews therefore said to him who was cured, “It is the Sabbath; it is not lawful for you to carry your bed.” John 5:8-10

nor carry a burden out of your houses on the Sabbath day . . . Jeremiah 17:22

Were the Jewish leaders correct in their criticism based on scripture? Or were they missing the point?
 
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Yes, I still see no response to my question.

Did Jesus and the apostles violate the Old Testament law that you quote when Moses and Elijah appeared and talked with them?


Nothing teaches that anyone other than Jesus (because He is God) communicated with Moses and Elijah.
If you know of a passage that teaches otherwise, then please present it.
 
Nothing teaches that anyone other than Jesus (because He is God) communicated with Moses and Elijah.
If you know of a passage that teaches otherwise, then please present it.
Peter responded when while Moses and Elijah were appearing, and he speaks about Moses and Elijah by name.
And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. Then Peter answered and said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, let us make here three tabernacles: one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.” Matthew 17: 3-4 NKJV
Peter also addressed the dead body of Tabitha/Dorcas as recorded in the Book of Acts:
Tabitha, which is translated Dorcas. This woman was full of good works and charitable deeds which she did. But it happened in those days that she became sick and died. When they had washed her, they laid her in an upper room . . . Peter put them all out, and knelt down and prayed. And turning to the body he said, “Tabitha, arise.” And she opened her eyes, and when she saw Peter she sat up.
John has a conversation with one of the elders in the Book of Revelation:
. . . one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”
And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”
So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. . .
Revelation 17:13-14
 
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Peter responded when while Moses and Elijah were appearing, and he speaks about Moses and Elijah by name.

Doesn't necessitate he communicated with them.

Peter also addressed the dead body of Tabitha/Dorcas as recorded in the Book of Acts:

He was allowed to since Christ gave Him this authority in Matthew 10:8 - only to the apostles.

John has a conversation with one of the elders in the Book of Revelation:

In vision.
 
Yes, I still see no response to my question.

Did Jesus and the apostles violate the Old Testament law that you quote when Moses and Elijah appeared and talked with them?

A similar issue occurred when Jesus healed a man and told him to pick up his bed on the Sabbath:
Talked to Jesus (God) NOT the apostles. Are you God and can talk to those already dead? SMH. Anything justify your unbiblical belief that it's ok for you to pray (contact) the dead. Or will you be like Eve and believe the serpent (Gen 3:1). Here it is again:

Deuteronomy 18:10-13 urges: “Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD; because of these same detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you. You must be blameless before the LORD your God.”
Were the Jewish leaders correct in their criticism based on scripture?
Your ignorance of Scripture is showing.
Or were they missing the point?
No. Just showing their ignorance of Scripture.
 
Talked to Jesus (God) NOT the apostles. Are you God and can talk to those already dead? SMH. Anything justify your unbiblical belief that it's ok for you to pray (contact) the dead. Or will you be like Eve and believe the serpent (Gen 3:1). Here it is again:

Deuteronomy 18:10-13 urges: “Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD; because of these same detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you. You must be blameless before the LORD your God.”

Your ignorance of Scripture is showing.

No. Just showing their ignorance of Scripture.

Here is the quote from Deuteronomy in context. It is referring to how ancient Israelites should deal with the pagan Canaanites.
When you come into the land which the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominations of those nations. There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. For all who do these things are an abomination to the Lord, and because of these abominations the Lord your God drives them out from before you. You shall be blameless before the Lord your God. For these nations which you will dispossess listened to soothsayers and diviners; but as for you, the Lord your God has not appointed such for you. Deut 18:9-14

A little bit later in the same book there is this passage. Does this command apply to Christians as well?
Now if the city will not make peace with you, but war against you, then you shall besiege it. And when the Lord your God delivers it into your hands, you shall strike every male in it with the edge of the sword. But the women, the little ones, the livestock, and all that is in the city, all its spoil, you shall plunder for yourself; and you shall eat the enemies’ plunder which the Lord your God gives you. Thus you shall do to all the cities which are very far from you, which are not of the cities of these nations. But of the cities of these peoples which the Lord your God gives you as an inheritance, you shall let nothing that breathes remain alive, but you shall utterly destroy them . . . Deut 20:13-16 NKJV
 
Here is the quote from Deuteronomy in context. It is referring to how ancient Israelites should deal with the pagan Canaanites.
So it's ok for those who claim to be Christian to consult with the dead, but not pagans. Got it. Gen 3:1
A little bit later in the same book there is this passage. Does this command apply to Christians as well?
Your responses are getting more and more desperate. I am actually feeling embarrassed for you.
Hey you want to consult (pray) to dead people that's on you. Believe the serpent. I will pray for you, but not to dead people, it is forbidden by God (plus the dead can't hear you).
 
So it's ok for those who claim to be Christian to consult with the dead, but not pagans. Got it. Gen 3:1

Your responses are getting more and more desperate. I am actually feeling embarrassed for you.
Hey you want to consult (pray) to dead people that's on you. Believe the serpent. I will pray for you, but not to dead people, it is forbidden by God (plus the dead can't hear you).
Repeating the same passage while ignoring any context is like a broken record.

Christians are commanded to worship only the one true God. To do otherwise is idolatry. There is no dispute about that.

Catholic and Orthodox Christians believe that it is beneficial to ask saints, on earth or in heaven, to pray for us. That understanding consistent with scripture and with traditions dating back to the early church.

The commands in Deuteronomy 18:10-13 were for the ancient Israelites when they were moving into Canaan. The commands do not apply to Christians, and many did not apply to Jews either at least in a narrow literal sense.

Do you really believe that God commands Christians to kill the adult male inhabitants of a city when it surrenders?

God gave humans free will. You are free to believe what you wish.
 
Catholic and Orthodox Christians believe that it is beneficial to ask saints, on earth or in heaven, to pray for us.

By asking them you are praying to them.
This asking can be done in silence (speaking only within the heart), and you still expect them to hear you even though prayer (1 Kings 8:38) should be to only God for He "alone" knows the hearts of all (1 Kings 8:39).

Remember, to render prayer is to engage in latreuō (cf. Luke 2:37) - and latreuō is due unto God alone (Matthew 4:10).
 
Repeating the same passage while ignoring any context is like a broken record.

Christians are commanded to worship only the one true God. To do otherwise is idolatry. There is no dispute about that.

Catholic and Orthodox Christians believe that it is beneficial to ask saints, on earth or in heaven, to pray for us. That understanding consistent with scripture and with traditions dating back to the early church.

The commands in Deuteronomy 18:10-13 were for the ancient Israelites when they were moving into Canaan. The commands do not apply to Christians, and many did not apply to Jews either at least in a narrow literal sense.

Do you really believe that God commands Christians to kill the adult male inhabitants of a city when it surrenders?

God gave humans free will. You are free to believe what you wish.
Like I said. Keep praying to dead people. You will never convince me otherwise. I’ll stick praying to God. You can continue to consult the dead.
 
Like I said. Keep praying to dead people. You will never convince me otherwise. I’ll stick praying to God. You can continue to consult the dead.

Can you point to a bible verse that says that Elijah actually died?

What does it mean when Elijiah said that his spirit would remain upon Elisha?

And so it was, when they had crossed over, that Elijah said to Elisha, “Ask! What may I do for you, before I am taken away from you?”

Elisha said, “Please let a double portion of your spirit be upon me.”

So he said, “You have asked a hard thing. Nevertheless, if you see me when I am taken from you, it shall be so for you; but if not, it shall not be so.” Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. And Elisha saw it, and he cried out . . .
2 Kings 2:9-12 NKJV
 
Can you point to a bible verse that says that Elijah actually died?

What does it mean when Elijiah said that his spirit would remain upon Elisha?
Wow. I think you are really trying to convince yourself. SMH

But, like I said. Keep praying to dead people (sin). You will never convince me otherwise. I’ll stick to praying to God (as His Word teaches). You can continue to consult the dead.
 
Wow. I think you are really trying to convince yourself. SMH

But, like I said. Keep praying to dead people (sin). You will never convince me otherwise. I’ll stick to praying to God (as His Word teaches). You can continue to consult the dead.
Scripture says that Elijah was carried into heaven in a chariot of fire. There is no mention of him dying.

. . . a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

Do you have a non-biblical tradition that says he died?
 
Scripture says that Elijah was carried into heaven in a chariot of fire. There is no mention of him dying.

. . . a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

Do you have a non-biblical tradition that says he died?
Hey. Pray to Elijah all you want. I’ll stick to praying to God (as His Word teaches). Praying to anyone else, alive or dead is a sin. (Trying to change the goalposts I see). SMH

Deuteronomy 18:10-13 urges: “Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD; because of these same detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you. You must be blameless before the LORD your God.”
 
Hey. Pray to Elijah all you want. I’ll stick to praying to God (as His Word teaches). Praying to anyone else, alive or dead is a sin. (Trying to change the goalposts I see). SMH

Deuteronomy 18:10-13 urges: “Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD; because of these same detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you. You must be blameless before the LORD your God.”

"To pray" has multiple meanings in English. Here some examples:
  • To make a request in a humble manner.
  • To formally request judicial judgment, relief and/or damages at the end of a complaint or petition.
"The plaintiff prays for: 1) special damages in the sum of $17,500; 2) general damages according to proof . . . https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/prayer

The meaning has changed over time. Here is an example from the KJV where pray is used for a request to a family member.
And the time drew nigh that Israel must die: and he called his son Joseph, and said unto him, If now I have found grace in thy sight, put, I pray thee, thy hand under my thigh, and deal kindly and truly with me; bury me not, I pray thee, in Egypt . . . Genesis 47:29 KJV

Pray is used in these meanings when Catholics and Orthodox talk about petitions to saints.
 
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"To pray" has multiple meanings in English. Here some examples:
  • To make a request in a humble manner.
  • To formally request judicial judgment, relief and/or damages at the end of a complaint or petition.


The meaning has changed over time. Here is an example from the KJV where pray is used for a request to a family member.


Pray is used in these meanings when Catholics and Orthodox talk about petitions to saints.
Of course you had to change the meaning to justify praying to the dead. Which is of course a sin.

Wow. You just can’t make this stuff up! It would be funny if it wasn’t so sad.
 
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