DEBATE: Is prayer to Mary & the saints worship?

[Mik]

What does proper worship look like? Praise music with a 45 minute sermon?

Again, I did provide examples:
1) The lens in which one interpret Scripture
2) The number of books in the Old Testament Scriptures
3) The structure of worship service
4) The music played during worship
5) Many churches have Wednesday evening services (where is that in the Bible (book, chapter and verse please)?
6) How often does a church practice the Lord's Supper? Every Sunday? Twice a month? Once a month? Quarterly?
7) Sacred art or no sacred art? I've been into southern baptist churches that have zero art. I've been into southern baptist churches with art.
8) Is there an alter table at your church? My mother-in-laws baptist church has one, covered in a nice cloth with the covered with the ichthys and Chi-Rho.


Never said I did. I was just listing some examples of things that are not explicitly in the Scriptures.

Nothing you listed answered my question. Try again: I'll bolden to try to help you answer.

'Please tell us what God forgot to include in His Word (Bible) that can lead one to eternal life and please tell us what God forgot to include in His Word (Bible) for how to live on earth after one is born-again that the rc denomination/eastern orthodox denomination or any other denomination needs to provide?'

 

[ziapueblo]

Yes praying to the dead is against scripture.

Those in Heaven are more alive than we are, as the book of Revelation has shown us.

The use of icons is not scriptural.

Not true. Images were put on the Ark and in the Temple, a place of worship.

Please show a prayer by an apostle to the dead?

No were to be found, because when we "pray", make a request, we are not asking for the intercession of a dead person. Second, I know of no quotes of the Apostles speaking of the intercession of the saints, but that is ok because it is part of Tradition, which is Scriptural, and it is seen, as I have shown, that those in Heaven are interceding for us, taking our prayers to God.

Show one apostle who bowed before an icon?

Can't do that, but this is ok because it is part of Tradition, which is Scriptural. Although, there are numerous references in Scripture, as I have shown, of one bowing down to others. What's the difference? When one bows down to someone in Scripture, it is not worship. When Christians bow before an icon, it is not worship.

I gave more than one verse to back up scripture alone, but I don't believe in scripture and nothing else that is the misunderstanding of scripture alone.

Sorry, but it is not Scripture alone, but Tradition, paradosis, both word of mouth and epistle. Scripture itself is very clear on this. What is the pillar and bulwark of truth?

You can use other sources but they MUST align with scripture. Orthodoxs like RCs misuse scripture alone.

Truly laughable! I could say the same about you if I wanted

I cannot speak for Orthodoxs as I was not brought up Orthodox.

Well, nothing is added or taken away from Scripture. We actually venerate and kiss the gospel book every Orthros (morning prayer).

No my bible did not subtract the OT books, those books were not considered by Jewish believers who lived in the land nor are they considered scripture by modern Jewish people.

Sorry, but the Jews of Christ's time used the Septuagint and almost 90% of quotes in the New Testament come from the Septuagint and this is the Scripture that the early Christians used, so I'll stick with the Orthodox Old Testament.

Modern Jews don't see these books as Scripture? Well, tell that to the Jews in Ethiopia who use the Septuagint. Plus, why does it matter what the modern Jews use. They are not Christian, and the books that the reformers took out, well, they are very Christian. Have you read them?

Peter is clear Paul wrote the same as he spoke.

How can you certainly say that all St Paul spoke was also written?

So that is just a coverup to say the NT books were not written.

The first book fo the NT is not written for 20 years at least, after the death, resurrection and accession of Christ. The last book, almost 80 years after His death, resurrection and accession. Not all believer, heck, even local Churches, did not have a compelation of the NT books. Probably for hundreds of years. There was no printing press. All this was hand written and took a good year just to make a copy of one set of Old and New Testament Scriptures. You seem to think there was a Bible on hand for every believer and every local Church.

I'm sure you know that the earliest manuscripts have books in that are not in the modern NT.

Obviously not all Orthodox beliefs align with scripture otherwise we would agree about praying to the dead and icons.

Obviously not all Protestant Christians beliefs align with Scripture otherwise they would agree with each other on matters of grace, baptism, the Lords Supper.

 

[ziapueblo]

'Please tell us what God forgot to include in His Word (Bible) that can lead one to eternal life and please tell us what God forgot to include in His Word (Bible) for how to live on earth after one is born-again that the rc denomination/eastern orthodox denomination or any other denomination needs to provide?'

First off, the Orthodox is not a "denomination". There was ONE Church, both East and West, until the unfortunate divorce between the Churches. Denominations came out of the reformation.

To answer your question, and I'll give you a proper Orthodox answer, the Scriptures are not lacking in anything (which I have never said they were). The Orthodox hold firm to the Scriptures, both Old and New! We venerate the Scriptures. If one holds to the daily prayers of the Church, you will read the entire Psalter every week. Many monks who live in the monasteries have the Psalms memorized (not that this means anything but, Scripture is held tightly to by the Orthodox). Every hymn we sing, even those about the Saints, are about Christ and more than 90% of the hymns sung or the prayers chanted by the presbyter are either direct quotes or elusions to the Scriptures. Orthodox prayers that are prayed by individuals and families at their prayer corners, with their icons, are all taken from the Scriptures. What we Orthodox make that case for is Holy Tradition, which the Scriptures are part of.

Holy Tradition is the deposit of faith given by Jesus Christ to the Apostles and passed on in the Church from one generation to the next without addition, alteration or subtraction. Vladimir Lossky has famously described the Tradition as "the life of the Holy Spirit in the Church." It is dynamic in application, yet unchanging in dogma. It is growing in expression, yet ever the same in essence.

What does Holy Tradition consist of? I'll make a list:

• The Scriptures, both Old and New
• The Liturgical life of the Church (Divine Liturgy, Orthros, 1st hour, 3rd hour, 6th hour, 9th hour, Vespers, Compline and the Midnight Office)
• The Creeds
• The Ecumenical Councils
• Icons
• The hymns we sing
• The teachings of the fathers of the Church (we are not like the RCs who believe there is a period where the fathers of the Church end, like around St Gregory the Great Pope of Rome, but that the fathers of the Church are present to this day)

Orthodoxy is about having the phronema, the mindset, of the early Church. Not "where dose on find this or that in Scripture?" This mindset is a very Western, Roman Catholic and protestant mindset.

This may not be the answer you are looking for, and that is ok. This is the nature of the Orthodox Church. Often times the sufficient answer to a question is, "this is what the Church teaches." The type of apologetics which is seen in the various threads here or in other forums, such as Catholic forums, are foreign to Orthodox. As a Church, we do not throw around Scriptural proof texts to prove our point. Yes, I have done this (it is important for Orthodox Christians to know the Scriptural basis for their faith). I am an Orthodox Christian, living in the United States (born and raised in the US by the way, not making it seem as if I'm from the "old country" lol) which is dominantly a Western Christian mindset.

All I can do is show what we believe as the Orthodox. The answers will not be what protestant Christians will agree with but they are the answers which are given.

 

[Mik]

First off, the Orthodox is not a "denomination". There was ONE Church, both East and West, until the unfortunate divorce between the Churches. Denominations came out of the reformation.

Not true. But I believe you believe that.

To answer your question, and I'll give you a proper Orthodox answer, the Scriptures are not lacking in anything (which I have never said they were).

Thank you! I agree.

God DID NOT forgot to include ANYTHING in His Word (Bible) that can lead one to eternal life and God DID NOT forgot to include ANYTHING in His Word (Bible) for how to live on earth after one is born-again that the rc denomination/eastern orthodox denomination or any other denomination needs to or can provide.

Everything else you wrote below is extra stuff man has added to the Word of God. It means nothing to a true born-again believer. In fact one of your denomination's traditions seems to break the 1st and 2nd commandments IMHO.

Thank you for your time.

The Orthodox hold firm to the Scriptures, both Old and New! We venerate the Scriptures. If one holds to the daily prayers of the Church, you will read the entire Psalter every week. Many monks who live in the monasteries have the Psalms memorized (not that this means anything but, Scripture is held tightly to by the Orthodox). Every hymn we sing, even those about the Saints, are about Christ and more than 90% of the hymns sung or the prayers chanted by the presbyter are either direct quotes or elusions to the Scriptures. Orthodox prayers that are prayed by individuals and families at their prayer corners, with their icons, are all taken from the Scriptures. What we Orthodox make that case for is Holy Tradition, which the Scriptures are part of.

Holy Tradition is the deposit of faith given by Jesus Christ to the Apostles and passed on in the Church from one generation to the next without addition, alteration or subtraction. Vladimir Lossky has famously described the Tradition as "the life of the Holy Spirit in the Church." It is dynamic in application, yet unchanging in dogma. It is growing in expression, yet ever the same in essence.

What does Holy Tradition consist of? I'll make a list:

• The Scriptures, both Old and New
• The Liturgical life of the Church (Divine Liturgy, Orthros, 1st hour, 3rd hour, 6th hour, 9th hour, Vespers, Compline and the Midnight Office)
• The Creeds
• The Ecumenical Councils
• Icons
• The hymns we sing
• The teachings of the fathers of the Church (we are not like the RCs who believe there is a period where the fathers of the Church end, like around St Gregory the Great Pope of Rome, but that the fathers of the Church are present to this day)

Orthodoxy is about having the phronema, the mindset, of the early Church. Not "where dose on find this or that in Scripture?" This mindset is a very Western, Roman Catholic and protestant mindset.

This may not be the answer you are looking for, and that is ok. This is the nature of the Orthodox Church. Often times the sufficient answer to a question is, "this is what the Church teaches." The type of apologetics which is seen in the various threads here or in other forums, such as Catholic forums, are foreign to Orthodox. As a Church, we do not throw around Scriptural proof texts to prove our point. Yes, I have done this (it is important for Orthodox Christians to know the Scriptural basis for their faith). I am an Orthodox Christian, living in the United States (born and raised in the US by the way, not making it seem as if I'm from the "old country" lol) which is dominantly a Western Christian mindset.

All I can do is show what we believe as the Orthodox. The answers will not be what protestant Christians will agree with but they are the answers which are given.

 

[ziapueblo]

Everything else you wrote below is extra stuff man has added to the Word of God.

Not at all because it is part of Holy Tradition, which is Scriptural by the way. You know, St Paul speaks of Holy Tradition in many of his epistles. What traditions, which were taught by the Apostles, either by word of mouth or by letter, do you stand firm and hold to?

 

[balshan]

Those in Heaven are more alive than we are, as the book of Revelation has shown us.
That is just twisting the word around, all dead are living and no one one earth know where a person who is dead is. But they are not interested in earth if in heaven, they are focused on praising God.

Not true. Images were put on the Ark and in the Temple, a place of worship.

True if you read all of scriptures, God made an exception and He made no other exceptions at all, to the command not to make images.
No were to be found, because when we "pray", make a request, we are not asking for the intercession of a dead person. Second, I know of no quotes of the Apostles speaking of the intercession of the saints, but that is ok because it is part of Tradition, which is Scriptural, and it is seen, as I have shown, that those in Heaven are interceding for us, taking our prayers to God.

Exactly nothing in scripture supports praying t the dead.
Can't do that, but this is ok because it is part of Tradition, which is Scriptural. Although, there are numerous references in Scripture, as I have shown, of one bowing down to others. What's the difference? When one bows down to someone in Scripture, it is not worship. When Christians bow before an icon, it is not worship.

False mad made traditions are pointless. Please show a Jewish tradition from that time where they did such things.
Sorry, but it is not Scripture alone, but Tradition, paradosis, both word of mouth and epistle. Scripture itself is very clear on this. What is the pillar and bulwark of truth?

Yep not your man made traditions which break the commandments.
Truly laughable! I could say the same about you if I wanted

Not laughable and shows a lack of respect for the word of God. You can say it but you don't do it, there is a difference.
Well, nothing is added or taken away from Scripture. We actually venerate and kiss the gospel book every Orthros (morning prayer).
Kissing a book is meaningless and those very actions add to scripture and ignore/take away the ones that say don't do it.

Sorry, but the Jews of Christ's time used the Septuagint and almost 90% of quotes in the New Testament come from the Septuagint and this is the Scripture that the early Christians used, so I'll stick with the Orthodox Old Testament.

Wrong Hebrew Jews never used the Septuagint as they did not consider Greek a sacred language. They still spoke Hebrew to discuss the things of God. So 90 per cent of quotes are from the NT come from the Hebrew scriptures. Modern scholars are finding more and more how important Hebrew was at the time to those in the Jewish areas.

Modern Jews don't see these books as Scripture? Well, tell that to the Jews in Ethiopia who use the Septuagint. Plus, why does it matter what the modern Jews use. They are not Christian, and the books that the reformers took out, well, they are very Christian. Have you read them?

You take one small group of Jews as your example then you are lost. Yes I have and they are not in scripture for very good reasons. My favourite is Judith, yep a woman who chopped off a man's head.
How can you certainly say that all St Paul spoke was also written?

Peter told us.

The first book fo the NT is not written for 20 years at least, after the death, resurrection and accession of Christ. The last book, almost 80 years after His death, resurrection and accession. Not all believer, heck, even local Churches, did not have a compelation of the NT books. Probably for hundreds of years. There was no printing press. All this was hand written and took a good year just to make a copy of one set of Old and New Testament Scriptures. You seem to think there was a Bible on hand for every believer and every local Church.

No one knows for sure when all those things like the year of Jesus death for sure. I mean but let us say Jesus died circa 30AD, James is meant to be written around 45 to 50 AD. More like 15 years after His death not long at all. So they had the real apostles and the writings were circulating as soon as they were written.

I'm sure you know that the earliest manuscripts have books in that are not in the modern NT.

So what, it does not prove they ignored the commandments. Please show one NT church or apostle that did what your church does? I am prepared to alter if you can offer evidence from the apostles that they prayed to the dead or bowed before statues of Mary even after she died. What about statues of Stephen? You have nothing to support what you do at all. Nothing from God.
Obviously not all Protestant Christians beliefs align with Scripture otherwise they would agree with each other on matters of grace, baptism, the Lords Supper.

Please show the disagreements. I mean you and other churches like the RC do not agree on all things.

 

[balshan]

Not at all because it is part of Holy Tradition, which is Scriptural by the way. You know, St Paul speaks of Holy Tradition in many of his epistles. What traditions, which were taught by the Apostles, either by word of mouth or by letter, do you stand firm and hold to?

Man made traditions. Prove they were taught by apostles. You must have evidence of this otherwise you have nothing. Peter on Paul is against your version of tradititon.

2 Peter 3:16

He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

So you are saying that Paul who writes the same in all his letters, speaks of different things. He has a different teaching.

 

[ziapueblo]

So 90 per cent of quotes are from the NT come from the Hebrew scriptures.

This is wrong. Much of the OT quotes in the NT come from the Septuagint since the first Christians spoke Greek and Greek was the lingua franca of the time.

Please show the disagreements.

All one needs to do is read any of the threads on this forum.

I mean you and other churches like the RC do not agree on all things.

You are right, this is why we are not in communion with the Roman Catholic Church.

Man made traditions.

Prove it. Plus, you do know that the faith spread by oral tradition don't you? I mean, it's not like the Apostles were handing out the KJV of the Scriptures to everyone they met. I don't recall Christ handing the Apostles Bibles. I do know that He commanded them to baptize and preach the Gospel.

Prove they were taught by apostles.

Easy, read the writings of the early Church.

Peter on Paul is against your version of tradititon.

Sorry, you have not shown this.

So you are saying that Paul who writes the same in all his letters, speaks of different things. He has a different teaching.

Sorry, I have no idea what you are speaking of here.

 

[Mik]

Not at all because it is part of Holy Tradition, which is Scriptural by the way.

Show me where 'Holy Tradition' (putting holy in front of and capitalizing tradition mean nothin...another one of your man-made things)

You know, St Paul speaks of Holy Tradition in many of his epistles.

Where does Paul speak of 'Holy Tradition"? (putting holy in front of and capitalizing tradition mean nothin...another one of your man-made things)

What traditions, which were taught by the Apostles, either by word of mouth

What, no 'Holy Tradition' this time? What 'traditions' were taught by word of mouth by the Apostles?

or by letter, do you stand firm and hold to?

What traditions (again no 'Holy Tradition'), by letter, (which means they are in the Holy Word of God) do true believers need to stand by for their Salvation?
So by capitalizing and throwing 'Holy" in front of tradition, do you belive your man made 'Holy Tradition' is equal to the infallible Holy Word of God?

This conversation is just me being polite, since you have already agreed with me that:

'ziapueblo said:
To answer your question, and I'll give you a proper Orthodox answer, the Scriptures are not lacking in anything (which I have never said they were).'

If you agree, ' the Scriptures are not lacking in anything ' why does your denomination insist on adding to the Holy Word of God?

So again:
Thank you! I agree.

God DID NOT forgot to include ANYTHING in His Word (Bible) that can lead one to eternal life and God DID NOT forgot to include ANYTHING in His Word (Bible) for how to live on earth after one is born-again that the rc denomination/eastern orthodox denomination or any other denomination needs to or can provide.

Everything else you wrote below is extra stuff man has added to the Word of God. It means nothing to a true born-again believer. In fact one of your denomination's traditions seems to break the 1st and 2nd commandments IMHO.

 

[Mik]

Man made traditions. Prove they were taught by apostles. You must have evidence of this otherwise you have nothing. Peter on Paul is against your version of tradititon.

2 Peter 3:16

He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

So you are saying that Paul who writes the same in all his letters, speaks of different things. He has a different teaching.

These denominations, rc and eastern orthodox, make their man made traditions equal to God's Word. Notice how Zia writes 'Holy Traditions" as if it is equal to the Holy Word of God. No fear of the Lord at all, IMHO.

Zia already agreed with what I wrote below: (but by continuing this 'tradition' thing, I don't think that's true)

'God DID NOT forgot to include ANYTHING in His Word (Bible) that can lead one to eternal life and God DID NOT forgot to include ANYTHING in His Word (Bible) for how to live on earth after one is born-again that the rc denomination/eastern orthodox denomination or any other denomination needs to or can provide.'

 

[balshan]

This is wrong. Much of the OT quotes in the NT come from the Septuagint since the first Christians spoke Greek and Greek was the lingua franca of the time.


All one needs to do is read any of the threads on this forum.


You are right, this is why we are not in communion with the Roman Catholic Church.


Prove it. Plus, you do know that the faith spread by oral tradition don't you? I mean, it's not like the Apostles were handing out the KJV of the Scriptures to everyone they met. I don't recall Christ handing the Apostles Bibles. I do know that He commanded them to baptize and preach the Gospel.


Easy, read the writings of the early Church.


Sorry, you have not shown this.


Sorry, I have no idea what you are speaking of here.

Look I will put this in simple language. You do things that go against scripture. You are wrong. The Greek and Hebrew are basically the same and Hebrew Jews NEVER considered Greek the biblical language. That is a fact.

You are the one that is failing to prove you beliefs as part of oral tradition you haven't. You cannot show one instant of an apostle doing any of those things that go against the commandments.

Of course you have no idea that is no surprise at all.

I cannot bother with false teachings.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Orthodox Christians don't go around saying, "where is this or that in the Bible"?

Which is exactly what allows them to formulate total GARBAGE for their theology.

 

[ziapueblo]

Show me where 'Holy Tradition' (putting holy in front of and capitalizing tradition mean nothin...another one of your man-made things)

You call the Bible the Bible correct? Show me were in the Bible the Bible is called the Bible and what books belong in the Bible? Oh, and I want to see where Bible is capitalized? Using the Bible of course.

We call it Holy Tradition. St Paul refers to it as "the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter." Us, meaning the Apostles. The Apostles (who did not all write letters and traveled all over the known world. I guess they carried around a printing press and the th Scriptures everywhere they went) were taught by Christ, who is Holy. Therefore, Holy Tradition.

Show me where the Bible says not to follow Tradition? I know what verses you will use of course, but they do not prove your point.

What 'traditions' were taught by word of mouth by the Apostles?

I've answered this question for you several times. If you don't like the Orthodox answer, thats fine.

 

[ziapueblo]

These denominations, rc and eastern orthodox, make their man made traditions equal to God's Word. Notice how Zia writes 'Holy Traditions" as if it is equal to the Holy Word of God. No fear of the Lord at all, IMHO.

???

Go to any Orthodox worship and you will have a difference of opinion.

 

[ziapueblo]

You do things that go against scripture.

Wrong!

You are the one that is failing to prove you beliefs as part of oral tradition you haven't.

I have. You choose not to recognize that I have because you disagree with it. Just like all of you on the Catholic threads

I cannot bother with false teachings.

Amen! This is why I am Christian!

 

[ziapueblo]

Which is exactly what allows them to formulate total GARBAGE for their theology.

This statement is laughable. I needed a good laugh! ?

 

[balshan]

Wrong!


I have. You choose not to recognize that I have because you disagree with it. Just like all of you on the Catholic threads


Amen! This is why I am Christian!

Not wrong praying to the dead and bowing to images is clearly against scripture. We all know you don't agree but you have failed to prove your views right. You do follow false teachings about praying to the dead and bowing to images. Those beliefs do not make you a Christian.

 

[ziapueblo]

Not wrong praying to the dead and bowing to images is clearly against scripture.

Sorry, I don't ask for the intercession form dead people. I mean, Christ, in front of three of His Apostles spoke with Moses and Elijah. Couple of dead guys I guess!?!?

Bowing down and serving, yes, very serious sin! Bowing down? No, not at all. Unless all the times others in Scripture bowed to one another are now in hades with the evil one?

Those beliefs do not make you a Christian.

Ah, judge and jury! Good for you

I guess we Orthodox need to get a grip with reality and start condemning other Christians beliefs (I don't agree with a single thing you are saying or your interpretations of Scripture, but you won't see me or any other Orthodox person questioning ones Christianity. Only God knows the hearts and minds of men). It's all in Gods hands, not yours

 

[Mik]

You call the Bible the Bible correct? Show me were in the Bible the Bible is called the Bible and what books belong in the Bible? Oh, and I want to see where Bible is capitalized? Using the Bible of course.

Is the Bible the Word of God?

We call it Holy Tradition. St Paul refers to it as "the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter." Us, meaning the Apostles. The Apostles (who did not all write letters and traveled all over the known world. I guess they carried around a printing press and the th Scriptures everywhere they went) were taught by Christ, who is Holy. Therefore, Holy Tradition.

So what are these 'traditions' the Apostles carried around that they were taught by Christ?

Show me where the Bible says not to follow Tradition? I know what verses you will use of course, but they do not prove your point.

Of course they would. But not to you, since your traditions are equal to God's Word.

I've answered this question for you several times. If you don't like the Orthodox answer, thats fine.

It's is your eternal life on the line. You put your faith and trust in the eastern orthodox denomination and I will put my trust and faith in Christ as revealed in His Holy Word.

 

[balshan]

Sorry, I don't ask for the intercession form dead people. I mean, Christ, in front of three of His Apostles spoke with Moses and Elijah. Couple of dead guys I guess!?!?

Bowing down and serving, yes, very serious sin! Bowing down? No, not at all. Unless all the times others in Scripture bowed to one another are now in hades with the evil one?


Ah, judge and jury! Good for you

I guess we Orthodox need to get a grip with reality and start condemning other Christians beliefs (I don't agree with a single thing you are saying or your interpretations of Scripture, but you won't see me or any other Orthodox person questioning ones Christianity. Only God knows the hearts and minds of men). It's all in Gods hands, not yours

Not praying to the dead at all. Where did Peter or the others speak to Moses or Elijah? That is a false support and you know it.

Bowing down is not to be done, it is a form of worship and trying to cover it up by changing words to and serving is just that a cover up.

No I am just agreeing with scripture, no need to judge at all. Something is either scriptural or it is not.

I don't agree with any single thing you are saying or your interpretations. I haven't questioned your Christianity, that shows your inability to read a simple posts. I said those things do not make one a Christian. If you think those two things make you a Christian then you have a major problem.

This sort of misinterpeting what I write gives me a clear insight into why false practices arise. But you clearly decided to be judged and jury with your false reading of my post. Well done. I have never said it wasn't in God's hands. But God is not a God of confusion.

Praying to the dead comes from false pagan beliefs for a start, needing statues also comes from the same source.