DEBATE: Is prayer to Mary & the saints worship?

[BornAgainRN]

On Monday, January 23rd at 8pm EST, I will be participating in a LIVE YouTube debate with Pastor Chuck, an Eastern Orthodox priest, on whether or not prayer to Mary & the saints is worship. I will be taking the position that prayer “IS” worship. You don’t need a YouTube account to watch it, but if you have one, the live chat will be active so you can post questions for us. Please keep me in your prayers, so God can be glorified.

 

[dingoling.]

On Monday, January 23rd at 8pm EST, I will be participating in a LIVE YouTube debate with Pastor Chuck, an Eastern Orthodox priest, on whether or not prayer to Mary & the saints is worship. I will be taking the position that prayer “IS” worship. You don’t need a YouTube account to watch it, but if you have one, the live chat will be active so you can post questions for us. Please keep me in your prayers, so God can be glorified.

It should not be called a debate but a Bible study. The goal should be determining the truth and as such our mind should be opened to carefully understand the others positions.

 

[Mysterium Fidei]

Pastor "Chuck"....LOL!

 

[balshan]

On Monday, January 23rd at 8pm EST, I will be participating in a LIVE YouTube debate with Pastor Chuck, an Eastern Orthodox priest, on whether or not prayer to Mary & the saints is worship. I will be taking the position that prayer “IS” worship. You don’t need a YouTube account to watch it, but if you have one, the live chat will be active so you can post questions for us. Please keep me in your prayers, so God can be glorified.

Prayer is worship, every thing we do should be done as a form of worship.

col 3:23

Whatever you do, work heartily, as for the Lord and not for men,

1 Cor 10:31

So, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.

 

[romishpopishorganist]

On Monday, January 23rd at 8pm EST, I will be participating in a LIVE YouTube debate with Pastor Chuck, an Eastern Orthodox priest, on whether or not prayer to Mary & the saints is worship. I will be taking the position that prayer “IS” worship. You don’t need a YouTube account to watch it, but if you have one, the live chat will be active so you can post questions for us. Please keep me in your prayers, so God can be glorified.

I certainly will keep the Orthodox priest in my prayers--so that he can defend the Truth of the Catholic Faith in the face of Protestant fundamentalist attacks.

 

[Mike McK]

Pastor "Chuck"....LOL!

I've never been crazy about calling pastors by their first name. But it's no worse than calling some guy "father".

 

[Bonnie]

I've never been crazy about calling pastors by their first name. But it's no worse than calling some guy "father".

I always call our minister "Pastor." I never call him by his first name, though my husband does at meetings or on the phone, since he too is a pastor, though emeritus.

 

[balshan]

I always call our minister "Pastor." I never call him by his first name, though my husband does at meetings or on the phone, since he too is a pastor, though emeritus.

I have no problems with calling a pastor by their given name. I even call my doctor by his given name. There is more to being respectful than titles. In fact, if they want to be formal then I would want my titles used.

But we are all equal with Jesus.

 

[BornAgainRN]

I certainly will keep the Orthodox priest in my prayers--so that he can defend the Truth of the Catholic Faith in the face of Protestant fundamentalist attacks.

Wouldn't it be better to pray that truth would be revealed, even if it doesn't hold to your personal worldview?

 

[BornAgainRN]

I certainly will keep the Orthodox priest in my prayers--so that he can defend the Truth of the Catholic Faith in the face of Protestant fundamentalist attacks.

At the very least, I hope you watch the debate, listen objectively to BOTH arguments, and then make up your mind then...as opposed to basing your opinion on your preconceived worldview.

 

[BornAgainRN]

It should not be called a debate but a Bible study. The goal should be determining the truth and as such our mind should be opened to carefully understand the others positions.

That is what we will be attempting to do during the debate.

 

[Bonnie]

I have no problems with calling a pastor by their given name. I even call my doctor by his given name. There is more to being respectful than titles. In fact, if they want to be formal then I would want my titles used.

But we are all equal with Jesus.

I choose to call him "Pastor" since that is his title and he earned that title, and it shows respect for his office. But that is just me. And of course we are all equal with Jesus.

 

[romishpopishorganist]

At the very least, I hope you watch the debate, listen objectively to BOTH arguments, and then make up your mind then...as opposed to basing your opinion on your preconceived worldview.

Do you seriously think I do not already have an idea of what each side is going to attempt to argue and how they are going to do it?

I did not get off the preverbal apologetics boat yesterday. I could probably do the debate and argue both sides myself! There is nothing new under the sun--as I have learned. There is nothing they are going to argue that hasn't been argued before.

 

[1Thess521]

Prayer is worship, every thing we do should be done as a form of worship.

col 3:23

Whatever you do, work heartily, as for the Lord and not for men,

1 Cor 10:31

So, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.

words do have meanings:
Pray (4336) (proseuchomai from pros = toward, facing, before [emphasizing the direct approach of the one who prays in seeking God’s face] + euchomai = originally to speak out, utter aloud, express a wish, then to pray or to vow. Greek technical term for invoking a deity) in the NT is always used of prayer addressed to God (to Him as the object of faith and the One who will answer one’s prayer) and means to speak consciously (with or without vocalization) to Him, with a definite

so praying to someone is implying that person is a deity

 

[romishpopishorganist]

words do have meanings:
Pray (4336) (proseuchomai from pros = toward, facing, before [emphasizing the direct approach of the one who prays in seeking God’s face] + euchomai = originally to speak out, utter aloud, express a wish, then to pray or to vow. Greek technical term for invoking a deity) in the NT is always used of prayer addressed to God (to Him as the object of faith and the One who will answer one’s prayer) and means to speak consciously (with or without vocalization) to Him, with a definite

so praying to someone is implying that person is a deity

Your argument is---"Well, the Greek word is a technical term for invoking a deity. This word in the NY is always used of a prayer addressed to God as the object of Faith....therefore praying to Saints is unbiblical."

Please provide a list or lists of all the verse or verses of Scripture that teach that the science of linguistic analysis specifically as it relates to the NT Greek determines the authoritative meaning of the text.

My point? There is nothing that I am aware in the definition of Sola Scriptura as Protestants define it that tells you what the rules are when interpreting Scripture, or what the rules are when it comes to determining the final and authoritative meaning of a text. Thus, why should I accept the premise of modern exegetical sciences that Protestants use when interpreting Scripture? Who says this is the only valid way to interpret the Scriptures? Sola Scriptura tells us only WHAT the authority is. It tells us nothing more. Thus, I fail to see why your analysis of the Greek should be binding on the Christian conscience or otherwise absolutely determinative.

Also, even IF you can show that the exegetical sciences in use today are a valid method and useful, that still does not help you. Anything gleaned from the use of the exegetical sciences amount to human testimony and human authority. In order for something to be binding on my conscience, it must be manifested by a divine authority. Protestants have the Scriptures, but they have no divinely authorized teacher of the Scriptures, which means none of their opinions as to what the Scriptures teach and mean--can bind the Christian conscience.

In the second place strictly speaking, Catholics do not "pray" to the saints in the same way they pray to God. When Catholics invoke the saints, what they are actually doing is asking their prayers, not praying "to" them like they pray to God.

 

[1Thess521]

Your argument is---"Well, the Greek word is a technical term for invoking a deity. This word in the NY is always used of a prayer addressed to God as the object of Faith....therefore praying to Saints is unbiblical."

Please provide a list or lists of all the verse or verses of Scripture that teach that the science of linguistic analysis specifically as it relates to the NT Greek determines the authoritative meaning of the text.

My point? There is nothing that I am aware in the definition of Sola Scriptura as Protestants define it that tells you what the rules are when interpreting Scripture, or what the rules are when it comes to determining the final and authoritative meaning of a text. Thus, why should I accept the premise of modern exegetical sciences that Protestants use when interpreting Scripture? Who says this is the only valid way to interpret the Scriptures? Sola Scriptura tells us only WHAT the authority is. It tells us nothing more. Thus, I fail to see why your analysis of the Greek should be binding on the Christian conscience or otherwise absolutely determinative.

Also, even IF you can show that the exegetical sciences in use today are a valid method and useful, that still does not help you. Anything gleaned from the use of the exegetical sciences amount to human testimony and human authority. In order for something to be binding on my conscience, it must be manifested by a divine authority. Protestants have the Scriptures, but they have no divinely authorized teacher of the Scriptures, which means none of their opinions as to what the Scriptures teach and mean--can bind the Christian conscience.

In the second place strictly speaking, Catholics do not "pray" to the saints in the same way they pray to God. When Catholics invoke the saints, what they are actually doing is asking their prayers, not praying "to" them like they pray to God.

So your argument is that Catholics have changed the meaning of the word " pray" from its NT meaning, so it is now acceptable to pray to non-deities .
and that the Protestants are in error by using the NT meaning of "pray" by NOT praying to non-deities?

Is that it?

 

[romishpopishorganist]

So your argument is that Catholics have changed the meaning of the word " pray" from its NT meaning, so it is now acceptable to pray to non-deities .
and that the Protestants are in error by using the NT meaning of "pray" by NOT praying to non-deities?

Is that it?

My argument is that when Catholics use the term "prayer" they mean it more broadly. They do not mean it in the narrow sense that Scripture uses the term.

Regardless, where does Scripture tell us that Greek linguistic analysis is what determines the absolute meaning of a passage?

 

[1Thess521]

My argument is that when Catholics use the term "prayer" they mean it more broadly. They do not mean it in the narrow sense that Scripture uses the term.

So i am correct:
you think Protestants are in error because they use the word pray the the same way the NT does.
I can't wait until you find out what baptize actually means

Regardless, where does Scripture tell us that Greek linguistic analysis is what determines the absolute meaning of a passage?

is that a strawman joke?
Who ever claimed Scripture is a Greek dictionary,

 

[balshan]

I choose to call him "Pastor" since that is his title and he earned that title, and it shows respect for his office. But that is just me. And of course we are all equal with Jesus.

Then they should use our titles and it shows respect for our status as well. I take the fact we are equal seriously. It means seats should not be reserved in my opinion and other things like that. Respect is not in a title to me, it is how we speak and what we say and how we treat others. In my opinion every person should be respected no matter what title they have or do not have. No matter if they have an office or not. All people are made in God's image.

I mean my grandmother used to make me stand up in at the movies when God saved the queen was played. I still do not understand why we had to, she wasn't never going to see us standing. Thank goodness we now have our own anthem and do not have God save the queen as ours. We have now stopped playing that before the start of movies as well. Of course now it is God save the king.

 

[balshan]

words do have meanings:
Pray (4336) (proseuchomai from pros = toward, facing, before [emphasizing the direct approach of the one who prays in seeking God’s face] + euchomai = originally to speak out, utter aloud, express a wish, then to pray or to vow. Greek technical term for invoking a deity) in the NT is always used of prayer addressed to God (to Him as the object of faith and the One who will answer one’s prayer) and means to speak consciously (with or without vocalization) to Him, with a definite

so praying to someone is implying that person is a deity

You are correct about the meaning of words.