DEBATE: Is prayer to Mary & the saints worship?

A new day

Well-known member
As I have said once before, sit down and read the bible; with nothing else along side of it. Just you, in your favorite place to sit and a bible. No catchechism, no cheat sheets, no extra biblical papers or online websites. Put all other reading material away. Just read the bible by yourself and for yourself. So dust off the bible sitting on a table or shelf and read it as you would any other book.

Back in the years before the 1800's the rcc hampered people from reading the bible for themselves. But now in these days, everybody has access to a bible. So there is no excuse not to read it for yourself.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
You are now obfuscating praying to the saints with praying to God. They are not the same. Prayer to the saints is intercessory prayer, asking them to pray for our intentions, since the prayers of the righteous availeth much. The saints are a "means"; God is the "end".
Prayers are prayers. You pray to people dead in the Lord as one would pray to God, and for the same things: help, comfort, peace, and even salvation. I have put down several Marian prayers on here that ask for all of those things and nowhere in them was a plea to intercede for the pray-er.

But those on earth who are saved are righteous in God's eyes by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. Jesus tells us to pray to our Father in heaven. Paul tells us to make our prayers known to God. Jesus said that "whatever you ask Me in My name, that I will do." That is prayer. Prayer is worship. Just because Catholics direct their prayers to Mary or Peter or some other saint dead in the Lord doesn't make it right.
 

pilgrim

Well-known member
Prayers are prayers. You pray to people dead in the Lord as one would pray to God, and for the same things: help, comfort, peace, and even salvation. I have put down several Marian prayers on here that ask for all of those things and nowhere in them was a plea to intercede for the pray-er.

But those on earth who are saved are righteous in God's eyes by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. Jesus tells us to pray to our Father in heaven. Paul tells us to make our prayers known to God. Jesus said that "whatever you ask Me in My name, that I will do." That is prayer. Prayer is worship. Just because Catholics direct their prayers to Mary or Peter or some other saint dead in the Lord doesn't make it right.
No, intention is everything. If your prayers have no intention, they are worthless words. In prayers to saints, there is no intention to worship them no matter how many times you claim otherwise, making your words FALSE.
 

A new day

Well-known member
No, intention is everything. If your prayers have no intention, they are worthless words. In prayers to saints, there is no intention to worship them no matter how many times you claim otherwise, making your words FALSE.

People do not pray to hear themselves talk for no reason, they expect the recipient to hear them. Otherwise, your just talking to yourself.
 

Nondenom40

Well-known member
No, intention is everything. If your prayers have no intention, they are worthless words. In prayers to saints, there is no intention to worship them no matter how many times you claim otherwise, making your words FALSE.
Prayer by definition IS to petition a deity. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, you know the rest. When you pray TO anything other than God you expect that thing to hear you and accomplish what you've asked. All of our prayers are to be directed to God. Not a shred of scripture to suggest otherwise.
 

pilgrim

Well-known member
Prayer by definition IS to petition a deity. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, you know the rest. When you pray TO anything other than God you expect that thing to hear you and accomplish what you've asked. All of our prayers are to be directed to God. Not a shred of scripture to suggest otherwise.
In the Catholic faith we have the Communion of Saints. Apparently you don't. They are that "great cloud of witnesses" that we read about in Scripture. If they are witnesses, then they know if we pray to them.
 

romishpopishorganist

Well-known member
And YOU, sir, think your church's adding to the word of God and even contradicting it with man-made dogmas are just fine and dandy--don't you?
No, mamn, I do NOT think that. You continue to beg the question.

You and I, mamn, agree that the Church should neither add nor subtract from God's Word. I believe it is YOUR founder, and YOUR sect that has added to and taken away from the Word of God, not the RCC.
So, you think the proper translation of biblical Greek in the NT into good, vernacular English by those highly trained in Biblical Greek, with Ph.Ds in the subject, are mere "whims" and "musings"?
At times, yes. The deeper question, though is---who says their translations should be considered definitive?
But then this is what you must do, disparage real, Biblical scholars who are highly trained in Biblical Greek and Hermeneutics, in order to justify your church's often unbiblical interpretation of the NT--isn't it?
No, I am asking why you think Greek scholars are any more qualified to teach us the Scriptures than a pope and bishops.
 

RiJoRi

Well-known member
I'm sure plenty of Catholics read their Bibles.

What is wrong, if I may ask, with reading ones Bible with, lets say a catechism, or Scriptural commentary? I'm not here to debate (I can't on this thread since I am Orthodox). Just wondering what your thoughts are.

Thanks
Problems arise when we consciously or unconsciously give commentaries authority which they cannot have because they are not inspired. Tools (concordnances, topical bibles, etc.) can be useful, but putting your trust in one man's (or even a committee's) opinions can be hazardous.

--Rich
 

ziapueblo

Active member
Problems arise when we consciously or unconsciously give commentaries authority which they cannot have because they are not inspired. Tools (concordnances, topical bibles, etc.) can be useful, but putting your trust in one man's (or even a committee's) opinions can be hazardous.

--Rich
I see what your saying and I would agree with that.

Catholics, of course, would go to the Catechism of the Catholic Church as their first source of Scriptural commentary, Catholic Church documents from councils then the Church Fathers (which many of those documents have).

As an Orthodox Christian, most of our commentary would come from the Fathers of the Church (both early Fathers and present day Fathers).

As a non-Catholic (I'm assuming) Christian and non-Orthodox Christian, where do you like to find Scriptural commentary?
 

Fred

Well-known member
Prayer is a form of worship, yes but it has other definitions:

- To humbly beg a person for their aid or their time.
- To ask earnestly for; to seek to obtain by supplication; to entreat for.
- To wish or hope strongly for a particular outcome.
- To implore or entreat a request.

From my perspective (Orthodox) we do not see "praying" to saints as worship because, well, Orthodox and Catholics don't worship the saints. That would be heresy.

The things is, prayers to them are (at least sometimes) offered silently. The person doing so expects their prayers to be heard, but the Bible teaches this is reserved for God "alone."
1 Kings 8:38-39
whatever prayer...is made...then hear in heaven.., for You alone know the hearts of all the sons of men.

When I am told that I can ask others to prayer for me misses the point. When I do so they can hear me ask them because I am speaking audibly to them. I am not just looking at them (or be a thousand miles away from them) and communicating in silence (i.e., within my heart).
I wouldn't expect them to hear me.
 
Last edited:

SPOKENWORD

Well-known member
Hmm...the Church gathered together in constant prayer, unified, Mary with them and Peter, promoting apostolic succession (Acts 1:15-26) and speaking on behalf of the Church and the Faith (Acts 2: 14-41). "They devoted themselves (gasp! Idolatry!) to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer." Sure LOOKS like the Catholic Church!
Mary and Peter were not Roman Catholics. The Churches name was "The Way".
 

SPOKENWORD

Well-known member
You are now obfuscating praying to the saints with praying to God. They are not the same. Prayer to the saints is intercessory prayer, asking them to pray for our intentions, since the prayers of the righteous availeth much. The saints are a "means"; God is the "end".
1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, Christians dont pray to saints to get God to hear their prayer. We go to God only through Jesus.
 

SPOKENWORD

Well-known member
I'm sure plenty of Catholics read their Bibles.

What is wrong, if I may ask, with reading ones Bible with, lets say a catechism, or Scriptural commentary? I'm not here to debate (I can't on this thread since I am Orthodox). Just wondering what your thoughts are.

Thanks
This is actually a good opportunity to test what is in the CCC if it aligns with Gods Word. If it doesn,t then we are to reject it.
 
Top