Debate: Trent Horn vs Steve Christie (Marian dogmas)

organgrinder said:
So... what do you do with the lovely commandment God gave Moses about making no graven images, etc.? You will find it in Deuteronomy 5.


'I am the Lord your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
7 'You shall have no other gods before Me.
8 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image — any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;
9 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them.
For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me,
10 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
(Deuteronomy 5:6-10 NKJV)

This isn't a "fundamentalist" thing. This is a "God thing".
Misfit said: - Does that go for pictures of your loved ones? A painting of your loved ones? I guess statues of our Founding Fathers is out too. 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image — any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;
why did you not include vs 9?

9 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them.
 
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why did you not include vs 9?

9 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them.

posters
the only way they can bow down and serve them;
is obey those that speak for these Idols

 
At around 1.56.00... you state, (quoting Trent Horn), "that our theology should come from the Bible and not the Bible from our theology" then you stated, "that is sola scriptura folks and I agree with them, as did the apostle Paul and the1st century Roman church."

That is not accurate though. Not all theology came from the Bible. In the early days of the Christian faith the OT scriptures were all they had. Some of what we believe, our theology, were "mysteries" that were revealed to us by the Holy Spirit. Here is one example:

Ephesians 3:1-6, "This is the reason that I Paul am a prisoner for Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles— for surely you have already heard of the commission of God’s grace that was given me for you, and how the mystery was made known to me by revelation, as I wrote above in a few words, a reading of which will enable you to perceive my understanding of the mystery of Christ. In former generations this mystery was not made known to humankind, as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit: that is, the Gentiles have become fellow heirs, members of the same body, and sharers in the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel."
I think you missed the point of why I quoted Trent. As a Catholic, he doesn't believe in sola scriptura. Yet, that comment "is" a sola scriptura statement...which when Trent said it during his debate against James White, I don't think he realized what he said.
 
In John's revelation
And they sing the Song of Moses
just what do you think John speaks of ????????????????
.
44 And Moses came and spake
all the words of this song in the ears of the people,
he, and Hoshea the son of Nun.

Deut 32:1​
Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak;​
and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth.​
2 My doctrine shall drop as the rain,​
my speech shall distil as the dew,​
as the small rain upon the tender herb,​
and as the showers upon the grass:​
3 Because I will publish the name of the Lord:
ascribe ye greatness unto our God.​
4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect:​
for all his ways are judgment:​
a God of truth and without iniquity,​
just and right is he.​

Just "which Rock" do you think Moses speaks of
Christ or Peter
was Peter a God
is your Pope a God

For they are a nation void of counsel,​
neither is there any understanding in them.​
29 O that they were wise,​
that they understood this,
that they would consider their latter end!​
For their vine is of the vine of Sodom,​
and of the fields of Gomorrah:​
their grapes are grapes of gall, their clusters are bitter:​
33 Their wine is the poison of dragons,​
and the cruel venom of asps.​
.​
And he shall say,​
Where are their gods, their rock in whom they trusted,​
34 Is not this laid up in store with me,​
and sealed up among my treasures?​
He is the True Vine <vs> the Vine of Sodom​
as Peter says of the end time events​
Sodom of Old is set forth as an example​
of Modern Day Sodom​
Gen. 18 ->19​
17 And the Lord said,​
Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do;
 
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Read Ephesians 2:15.
Jesus did not abolish the law....He abolished emnity....Between the Jews under the law and the Gentiles who weren't and reconciling all to God via His sacrifice on the cross. You throw out a verse not even understanding the context and cause Scripture to contradict itself. I see why Catholics say they can't interpret Scripture for themselves.
The law of commandments is the ceremonial law of sacrifice, because Jesus was the perfect once for all sacrifice.
The moral law, the 10 commandments were NEVER abolished as you are trying to say. Your own church says the 10 commandments were never abolished, as they are natural law.

14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.

So, are you still suggesting Jesus is a liar when He said He has not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it?

Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets; I have come not to abolish but to fulfill.

 
That is the oc law. We are not under the oc law we are under the NC law. Even if we still were under the oc law we are not in violation of it.
Soooo, not making images of wood, stone, etc. and serving them is just an OT thing? It's okay in the NT?

Remember the video I posted? There was an image of Mary being venerated and paraded around the streets of Seville, with people moved to tears by it...this is an idol and the people are serving it....they further serve Mary by praying to her for help, succor; to save them from her Son's wrath...this also serving her, and ascribing powers to her that rightfully belong only to her Son.
 
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Those things are said against your church, not against Catholics personally on here. Therein lies the difference.
If the Church is evil and the clergy are evil, then it is only common sense to bring that same idea down to the faithful Catholic. After all, it is the individual Catholic that supports the other two. Regardless, it is only basic common decency to refrain from calling another Christian Church such a thing, that my friend is clearly beyond the pale as far as I am concerned.
 
If the Church is evil and the clergy are evil, then it is only common sense to bring that same idea down to the faithful Catholic. After all, it is the individual Catholic that supports the other two. Regardless, it is only basic common decency to refrain from calling another Christian Church such a thing, that my friend is clearly beyond the pale as far as I am concerned.

No, it is not beyond the pale to call out the false teachings of your apostate church.
 
There was an image of Mary being venerated and paraded around the streets of Seville, with people moved to tears by it..

You have got to understand that such actions are very ethnic. The Italians also parade around statues, but as a person of French descent, such things are alien to me.
 
No, it is not beyond the pale to call out the false teachings of your apostate church.

There you go. Does name calling really advance the conversation? But truth be told, we are not the ones who have left the covenant community.
 
No one called YOU a name. I can call out your apostate church all day every day.
Yeah, I know. It's the same as calling me an apostate, it's the Christian Church to which I belong. Your verbal slight of hand fools no one.

"Left the covenant commuity?" What does that even mean?
Of course you wouldn't know what it means, edit per mod
 
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Yeah, I know. It's the same as calling me an apostate, it's the Christian Church to which I belong.

No, it's not remotely the same.....but Catholics love to be a victim, even when they aren't.
Your verbal slight of hand fools no one.

That you can't tell the difference between the leadership of a religious organization and individual people is laughable. You aren't part of the leadership of your apostate religious organization are you?

Of course you wouldn't know what it means,

IOW, it's meaningless word salad....got it.
as you are unable to formulate anything that is not written down in the Bible verbatim.

Again, you mock those that cling to His word. I guess that's just typical for those that don't.
 
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