Defending Christianity from Christians

[Unknown Soldier]

Are we Christians our own worse enemies? It sometimes looks that way. Some critics of Christianity have pointed out that there is no Christianity (singular) but actually "Christianities." Christian sects number in the ten-thousands many of these sects denouncing many other sects as "cults" full of phony ignoramuses hard at work for the enemy. Of course, if any Christians are untrue believing in false doctrine, it is almost always some other Christians who are so--never we--oh no.

In any case, unbelievers have a field day over all this infighting. They say we are all confused over our own Bible and theology without even realizing it. They point out that this Christian vs. Christian fighting has destroyed the lives of many Christians. To them we are fools who kill and maim for no good reason.

So does Christianity need to be defended from Christians? It sure looks that way to me. I'd recommend that we Christians be a bit more tolerant about our differences and be more willing to recognize our common ground.

 

[Gary Mac]

Are we Christians our own worse enemies? It sometimes looks that way. Some critics of Christianity have pointed out that there is no Christianity (singular) but actually "Christianities." Christian sects number in the ten-thousands many of these sects denouncing many other sects as "cults" full of phony ignoramuses hard at work for the enemy. Of course, if any Christians are untrue believing in false doctrine, it is almost always some other Christians who are so--never we--oh no.

In any case, unbelievers have a field day over all this infighting. They say we are all confused over our own Bible and theology without even realizing it. They point out that this Christian vs. Christian fighting has destroyed the lives of many Christians. To them we are fools who kill and maim for no good reason.

So does Christianity need to be defended from Christians? It sure looks that way to me. I'd recommend that we Christians be a bit more tolerant about our differences and be more willing to recognize our common ground.

Religious minds such as our denominations are not out to promote Christ, they are out to promote their own religious minds only for a means of enterprise, selling God to the highest bidder and whoever is the best salesman wins in these sects. all 35 thousand to them. None of these teach you to be of Christ as Jesus was of Christ as God sent a man named Jesus to show them what it is to actually be of God as Jesus was of God.

Just ask any of these if they are as Jesus was in the Father and perfect as He is perfect, holy, pure, and without sin that righteousness is that God commands of us all to be like Him and walk as He walks in it as Jesus did, and see how many actually follow the ways of. Jesus to be of Christ anointed of God. I think you will find that very few are of Christ as Jesus was of Christ anointed of God by His Spirit.

 

[JonHawk]

Unknown Soldier said:
Are we Christians our own worse enemies? It sometimes looks that way. Some critics of Christianity have pointed out that there is no Christianity (singular) but actually "Christianities." Christian sects number in the ten-thousands many of these sects denouncing many other sects as "cults" full of phony ignoramuses hard at work for the enemy. Of course, if any Christians are untrue believing in false doctrine, it is almost always some other Christians who are so--never we--oh no.

In any case, unbelievers have a field day over all this infighting. They say we are all confused over our own Bible and theology without even realizing it. They point out that this Christian vs. Christian fighting has destroyed the lives of many Christians. To them we are fools who kill and maim for no good reason.

So does Christianity need to be defended from Christians? It sure looks that way to me. I'd recommend that we Christians be a bit more tolerant about our differences and be more willing to recognize our common ground.
Click to expand...

Religious minds such as our denominations are not out to promote Christ, they are out to promote their own religious minds only for a means of enterprise, selling God to the highest bidder and whoever is the best salesman wins in these sects. all 35 thousand to them. None of these teach you to be of Christ as Jesus was of Christ as God sent a man named Jesus to show them what it is to actually be of God as Jesus was of God.

Just ask any of these if they are as Jesus was in the Father and perfect as He is perfect, holy, pure, and without sin that righteousness is that God commands of us all to be like Him and walk as He walks in it as Jesus did, and see how many actually follow the ways of. Jesus to be of Christ anointed of God. I think you will find that very few are of Christ as Jesus was of Christ anointed of God by His Spirit.

Clearly there are "two camps" in Christianity, faith based, works based, and thus we have nothing in common. (2 Cor 6:14-16)
And "tolerating" error in order to be "politically correct" won't help the cause. At the end of the day, the unsaved are headed for perdition.
They stumble because they disobey the word, do not believe the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Remember, whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death. James 5:20

 

[Fred]

I'd recommend that we Christians be a bit more tolerant about our differences and be more willing to recognize our common ground.

There are other areas (cf. post 3), but any person who does not worship Jesus Christ is not a Christian.

Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament: The name was first given to the worshippers of Jesus by the Gentiles (Christianos).
http://biblehub.com/greek/5546.htm

 

[JonHawk]

There's so much I could say in response to this, but it would be pointless to do that....

Is being more tolerant the solution? Not at all. In fact in the 1980's, when the decline of their influence seemed to have peeked that's what they, many Christians, Jews and Muslims began to do. The real reason for that is what brings us the solution that is the non-solution. Money. When religions lose support they lose money and that seems to motivate the hell out of them.

Take away the money - their real God - and they will diminish rapidly. To nothing. But that will never happen and so it is, as I mentioned, the non-solution. The real solution is, let them have their God, the money God and see where that will take them.

For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.
But you, man of God, ... Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life at the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ;
This appearance is revealed by the blessed, only Sovereign (Ruler), the King of kings and the Lord of lords,...1 Tim 6:9-15

 

[Gary Mac]

Clearly there are "two camps" in Christianity, faith based, works based, and thus we have nothing in common. (2 Cor 6:14-16)
And "tolerating" error in order to be "politically correct" won't help the cause. At the end of the day, the unsaved are headed for perdition.
They stumble because they disobey the word, do not believe the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Remember, whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death. James 5:20

Yes and I have lead many to the Father. Lots of inmates over twenty five years of counseling them.

Faith produces works. If you have faith you can do all things for faith will produce anything you are determined to produce and that takes effort, works. Faith is just noise least you apply it. Want God to come this day? Then look for the One at the door this day. He will come to anyone who will open it, otherwise, works.

A Christian is Christ like, same anointing Jesus had of the Father no different at all.

I do not use the term Christian of myself for that term is so abused it is better for me if someone asks if Im Christian I reply with, I am a son of God, Gods son and like Him as Jesus was His son and like Him.

 

[JonHawk]

Yes and I have lead many to the Father.... over twenty five years of counseling them.

“I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

Faith produces works.

If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. John 1

If you have faith you can do all things...

Through the author of faith; Christ who strengthens us; Phil 3:13

Faith is just noise least you apply it.

And you're clanging all over the place gnostic.

for faith will produce anything you are determined to produce and that takes effort, works.

The gospel is bearing fruit and growing throughout the whole world—just as it has been doing among you since the day you heard it and truly understood God’s grace. Col 1:

I do not use the term Christian of myself...

Why would you? You're not in the faith. For there are many rebellious people, full of meaningless talk and deception, especially those of the circumcision; Titus 1:8

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Religious minds such as our denominations are not out to promote Christ, they are out to promote their own religious minds only for a means of enterprise, selling God to the highest bidder and whoever is the best salesman wins in these sects. all 35 thousand to them. None of these teach you to be of Christ as Jesus was of Christ as God sent a man named Jesus to show them what it is to actually be of God as Jesus was of God.

Just ask any of these if they are as Jesus was in the Father and perfect as He is perfect, holy, pure, and without sin that righteousness is that God commands of us all to be like Him and walk as He walks in it as Jesus did, and see how many actually follow the ways of. Jesus to be of Christ anointed of God. I think you will find that very few are of Christ as Jesus was of Christ anointed of God by His Spirit.

Well, Gary, you're posting comments that reflect the mindset I warned about in the OP. While I agree that many professing Christians fall short of the ideal preached by Christ, I see no reason to keep harping on something that all of us already know. Why not try a positive approach building Christianity up rather than always tearing it down? Currently the greatest threat against Christianity comes from within rather than from without.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Clearly there are "two camps" in Christianity, faith based, works based, and thus we have nothing in common. (2 Cor 6:14-16)

I'm not sure how that relates to the topic. Are you saying that those two camps are fighting each other? In any case, you've posted a false difference here. I see no reason why a Christian cannot be both a worker for Christ and have the faith Paul preached.

And "tolerating" error in order to be "politically correct" won't help the cause.

Error should be corrected, of course, but those committing error should never be harmed. To err is not to be evil but to be in need of Christ's salvation.

At the end of the day, the unsaved are headed for perdition. They stumble because they disobey the word, do not believe the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Yes, and just take care that you are not among them.

Remember, whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death. James 5:20

Two big "errors of our way" is to take up the first stone as the person without sin and to be blinded by the planks in our own eyes. If we avoid these errors, we can remove the specks from our own eyes leading sinners to Jesus rather than making them perish under our law.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

There are other areas (cf. post 3), but any person who does not worship Jesus Christ is not a Christian.

Right, so lead them to worship Christ. You won't get that job done by bashing them over the head.

 

[Fred]

Right, so lead them to worship Christ. You won't get that job done by bashing them over the head.

If they refuse then they are lost.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

There's so much I could say in response to this, but it would be pointless to do that. I could bring up the same points that have been argued on this forum over the years. Unresolved. That 99% of the teachings of 99% Christendom are pagan, primarily ancient Greek philosophy: The immortal soul from Socrates (Ezekiel 18:4; Matthew 10:28), the Trinity from Plato, Hell from Dante and Milton, (Romans 6:7; Proverbs 15:11; Psalms 139:7-8; Amos 9:1-2), the cross from Constantine, Christmas from Saturnalia, Easter from Astarte . I could point to their bloodthirsty quest to morally police the globe and kill fellow "Christians" for the sake of nationalism and xenophobia in the name of "God," "Freedom" and "Democracy." The CIA, for example, known around the world as "Christians In Action."

Is it safe to assume that you know better than to fall for all that paganism while less aware and prudent Christians fall for it? I agree that there are doctrines that paganism has in common some with some brands of Christianity, but such doctrines are not necessarily incompatible with what Christ taught. People need not be Christians to recognize many of the truths that Jesus revealed to us.

 

[Caroljeen]

There's so much I could say in response to this, but it would be pointless to do that. I could bring up the same points that have been argued on this forum over the years. Unresolved. That 99% of the teachings of 99% Christendom are pagan, primarily ancient Greek philosophy: The immortal soul from Socrates (Ezekiel 18:4; Matthew 10:28), the Trinity from Plato, Hell from Dante and Milton, (Romans 6:7; Proverbs 15:11; Psalms 139:7-8; Amos 9:1-2), the cross from Constantine, Christmas from Saturnalia, Easter from Astarte . I could point to their bloodthirsty quest to morally police the globe and kill fellow "Christians" for the sake of nationalism and xenophobia in the name of "God," "Freedom" and "Democracy." The CIA, for example, known around the world as "Christians In Action."

Is being more tolerant the solution? Not at all. In fact in the 1980's, when the decline of their influence seemed to have peeked that's what they, many Christians, Jews and Muslims began to do. The real reason for that is what brings us the solution that is the non-solution. Money. When religions lose support they lose money and that seems to motivate the hell out of them.

Take away the money - their real God - and they will diminish rapidly. To nothing. But that will never happen and so it is, as I mentioned, the non-solution. The real solution is, let them have their God, the money God and see where that will take them.

Money has nothing to do with Christianity. The early church grew rapidly without money but full of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Money has nothing to do with Christianity. The early church grew rapidly without money but full of the Holy Spirit.

See John 12:6. Jesus and the apostles kept a purse. It's best to check facts before posting.

 

[Caroljeen]

See John 12:6. Jesus and the apostles kept a purse. It's best to check facts before posting.

They gave to those in need and widows. Do you think they became rich off the gospel?
2 Cor 6:3-10, Acts 6:1-6, Acts 2:44-45

 

[Lastdaysbeliever]

N/T

 

[JonHawk]

I'm not sure how that relates to the topic. Are you saying that those two camps are fighting each other? In any case, you've posted a false difference here.

I quoted Paul, who rightly attested that there is nothing in common with those who are united in Christ and those in opposition.

I see no reason why a Christian cannot be both a worker for Christ and have the faith Paul preached.

As a matter of fact, we have at least one perfectly delusional poster on this board who's working real hard to malign the way of faith and claims that Paul is a false witness.

Error should be corrected, of course, but those committing error should never be harmed.

These workers of iniquity are doing harm to themselves.
The Lord is a shield for those who do right. But destruction will come to the workers of iniquity. Prov 10:29
They will say ‘We ate and drank in Your presence,"..
But He will say, ‘I never knew you, ...Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.’ Luke 13:26-28

To err is not to be evil but to be in need of Christ's salvation. Yes, and just take care that you are not among them.

As our beloved brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. ...and since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the wicked and fall from your secure position. 18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen. 2 Peter 3

Two big "errors of our way" is to take up the first stone as the person without sin and to be blinded by the planks in our own eyes.
If we avoid these errors, we can remove the specks from our own eyes leading sinners to Jesus rather than making them perish under our law.

And yet, some are unreasonable and are inclined to run amok claiming to be perfect and oppose the gospel.

May the word of the Lord may run swiftly and be glorified,...and may we be shielded from unreasonable and wicked men; for not all have faith. 2 Thess 3:1-3

 

[Gary Mac]

“I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

Nope' it says by me you cant get to God through Jesus, but you can get to God by receiving from that what Jesus did in Matt 3:16.

Jesus said I am the WAY, I am the truth, and I am the life and unless you have the same as he did from Gof you dont have His way, His truth, nor His life to live as God puts in man. Jesus receieved His way, His truth and His life when God came and opened up to him what that is.

And in that God removed Jesus from the old ways of the temple and became like God to know this difference just as we all do who receives from God that what Jesus and these others we read of did. You just haven't met God to know how He works in man, but His promise is when, or if, you ever see Him as He is ye shall be like Him.

Because you have not seen Him as He is there is no way that you can have that what Jesus brought to the table from God Himself.

If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. John 1

Yes Jesus said the same thing of the Father. He in me and I in Him are one just as Jesus was one in Him. John 17. You are not one in Him as Jesus was are you?

Through the author of faith; Christ who strengthens us; Phil 3:13

Actually Gods anointing in me make me just like Him as He did in Jesus and anointed Him with His Spirit. See Matt 3:16 that you have edited and removed from your bible.

And you're clanging all over the place gnostic.

Yes the ways of God is always noise to the religious minds who have a different god from the One Jesus obeyed and received in Matt 3:16.
That is why to you His ways really are gnostic, you should look up what a gnostic is, I think you will find Jesus was very gnostic for he believed that Gods Spirit resides in man as well as these. LOL

You dont have a clue what you are talking about, you won't even study your own bible to see what Jesus says you should be like Him as Jesus was like Him, and you have written your own. NO WAIT, Paul is your god, I forgot.

The more you realize self the less you seek God to be like Him, that is why you are like Paul as a sinner instead of Gods righteous.

The gospel is bearing fruit and growing throughout the whole world—just as it has been doing among you since the day you heard it and truly understood God’s grace. Col 1:

And if one has not received from God as Jesus did that Paul never did receive from God, then the gospel of Christ is not bearing fruit at all.

Why would you? You're not in the faith. For there are many rebellious people, full of meaningless talk and deception, especially those of the circumcision; Titus 1:8

Because of people such as you who teach to be sin and call it Christian and condemn we who are of Christ to be like Him instead of like you. And you are so in rebellion against God, totally anti against to be like Him as Jesus was like Him and He demands of you to be as well -- that term Christian leaves a bad taste in everyones mouth doesn't it? It is for people such as yourself that no one wants to be Christian as you present it and Christ suffers because of people such as you.

BTW -- you are right, I do not have your faith in sin as you are of, my faith is the same faith Jesus displayed in the Father.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

They gave to those in need and widows. Do you think they became rich off the gospel?
2 Cor 6:3-10, Acts 6:1-6, Acts 2:44-45

No, I don't think that Jesus or the apostles ever attained earthly riches. In any case, you seem to be moving the goalposts because you claimed earlier that "The early church grew rapidly without money..." That claim is false. The fact of this matter is that money has much to do with the faith founded by Christ. Money, like food and water, is necessary to live, and Jesus never denied it.

So getting back to the issues raised in the OP, I don't see how the use of money in the church is necessarily something that should cause division in the church as long as that money is raised and used honestly and that its use is disclosed to those who donate it.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

I quoted Paul, who rightly attested that there is nothing in common with those who are united in Christ and those in opposition.

But what does that have to do with how Christians differ regarding the role of works in salvation? I don't see how a position on that issue determines who is "in opposition."

As a matter of fact, we have at least one perfectly delusional poster on this board who's working real hard to malign the way of faith and claims that Paul is a false witness.

What does that have to do with a Christian having faith and also working for Christ?

These workers of iniquity are doing harm to themselves.

Then help them see the light.

The Lord is a shield for those who do right. But destruction will come to the workers of iniquity. Prov 10:29

You might not be able to do much about others who work iniquity, but you can do much about any works of iniquity done on your own part. So it's wise to focus on the latter rather than the former.

They will say ‘We ate and drank in Your presence,"..
But He will say, ‘I never knew you, ...Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.’ Luke 13:26-28

It's important to understand that those who ate and drank in Christ's presence whom Christ commanded to depart from him were very confident of their own righteousness. So having such confidence does not assure heaven.

As our beloved brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. ...and since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the wicked and fall from your secure position. 18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen. 2 Peter 3

Yes. Let's all take Paul's advice.

And yet, some are unreasonable and are inclined to run amok claiming to be perfect and oppose the gospel.

Who's doing that?

May the word of the Lord may run swiftly and be glorified,...and may we be shielded from unreasonable and wicked men; for not all have faith. 2 Thess 3:1-3

Jon, it looks like you may need some work.