Defending Christianity From Judaism

kamaeq

Active member
That "cursing" you mention is rooted in the people of Israel being conquered by foreign powers like Babylon, Persia, and Greece. In all those cases the Jews believed that they were coming under God's judgment for sin. They reacted by seeking reconciliation with God by conducting themselves so as to be forgiven by Him. When Rome occupied Israel, many Jews again sought salvation from God, and that's why God sent Jesus to save the Jews and also the gentiles. So yes, the idea of Jews ultimately and eternally being saved by God has its roots in the Hebrew Bible.
Darn, I was hoping this was going so well here I hoped it would just by a "like" for a reply...
May I read an example of an atheist who caused the Holocaust? Making claims about the Holocaust refusing to back them up is not likely to win converts among the Jews who may see you as lying to free Christianity from blame for the Holocaust.
Read a list of Nazi leaders. Read Mein Kampf. Read Marx. Read Engels. Here, read the Humanist Manifestos. I don't refuse to back them up, but to me this stuff has been proven to myself for decades after lots of research into some dark topics. Yes, I know, for the professors (not followers) of Christ, the various antiSemitic claims of the "guilt" of the Jews was pushed to keep them quiet, but if you want a trip into darkness, you can read a bunch of the source materials.

I mean, the first thing to establish might perhaps be why anyone would think international socialism (which persecutes by class rather than race/ethnicity, but has been known to happily persecute based on race/ethnicity) and national socialism (which persecutes by race/ethnicity, but has been known to happily persecute based on class) with virtually identical governmental forms are somehow opposites of each other except in a limited Eurocentric context. OTOH, it is easier to say "left" and "right" as a verbal shorthand in common usage.

A truly frightful book: Ordinary Men by Christopher R. Browning
Actually not directly on this topic, but it shows some of the problems with the logistics of extermination in psychological terms. Why is this important? Because is shows how ordinary men dealt with being the instruments of genocidal atrocity.

Do you actually think that the New Testament teaches something even like the Holocaust?
That is the only valid apologetic to claims that "Christians caused the Holocaust".
I assume you're referring to John 8:44 which quotes Jesus as saying:



If we check the context, John 8:31, we see that Jesus is speaking to the "Jews who had believed in Him" who apparently no longer did believe in Jesus. It is those Jews at least whom Jesus said had the Devil as their father. In any event, many Christians throughout the centuries have interpreted John 8 as saying that almost all Jews, surely the Jews who never converted, as having the devil as their father.
They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God. (Joh 8:39-47)

Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. (Joh 8:59)

The actual context was Jesus teaching in the Temple. (John 8:2) So the "disciples" would have been those listening to His teaching.
In the passage in question, yes, it is directed against the Jews rejecting Christ, but the further teaching shows that it addresses all of those who reject God.

Yes, I'm well aware that many who call themselves Christian have twisted Scripture to persecute all those they wish to, the Jews included.


I'm not sure if you're understanding the fact I explained earlier. The list I posted in the OP offers reasons why most Jews don't accept Christ. They would answer your questions by saying Jesus isn't the Messiah, for example, and that's why they don't follow Jesus.
Correct. Which is why I said many of the points on the list are obvious since a Jew who doesn't believe Jesus is the Messiah won't become a Christian.
I think you're missing the point. Many Jews would respond by saying that the portrayal of the Pharisees in the Gospel simply isn't fair, and that's why Jews object to that portrayal.
That would be another issue to be addressed and while I've looked that over a bit, I'm not really up to answering it. I'd have to see the exact objections, but the questions I would have (generally speaking) was: Did the Pharisees add to the Law of Moses in defining how to "properly practice" the Jewish faith?
Did the Pharisees act as "superior Jews" before God?

Yes, I know there are some qualifications to be had with those questions, but I said generally.
Rabbi Skobac of Jews for Judaism holds that miracles do not prove that the miracle worker is sent by God. For instance, Pharaoh's magicians duplicated Moses' staff turning into a snake, yet those magicians were not sent by God.
I agree with Rabbi Skobac on this subject and would not use the miracles as a necessary proof. Possibly as supporting evidence since Moses did actually perform the miracles as proof from God. My question was if the miracles prove Jesus was of God, not if the miracles actually prove that.
I'd recommend you better acquaint yourself with the relevant facts needed to defend Christianity from Jewish criticism.
I have, but perhaps I have dealt with a more sophisticated form of criticism than you have. This is why I tossed a number of the points in the OP because if we change one, then the rest fall. The central question remains, Is Jesus the Messiah?
Yes, Jew -> Christian.
No, Jew remains Jew.

I'm fairly sure we can make a similar list for most major religions.
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
  1. Jesus is not the Messiah.
When an observant Jew reads the New Testament with their own liturgical calendar in mind, it becomes painfully obvious that the gospels are employing a literary device; i.e. they're personifying God's salvation which is by perfect observance of God's commandments.
  1. God did not inspire the New Testament.
I've never heard this claim from educated Jews. It's a very Jewish set of documents which is probably why so many Christians don't understand it.
  1. There are no passages in the Hebrew Bible that clearly prophesy Jesus or even mention him at all.
This also doesn't seem to be a popular claim with Jews I've come in contact with either.
  1. The Jewish people never forfeited their role as God's chosen people to the Christian church.
Paul affirms this as well. so I don't know where you're getting this from. e.g. :

From Romans chapter 11:

"Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. ...at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

... Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?...
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
... that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: "
  1. Contrary to the way the Pharisees are portrayed in the Gospels, they were actually good people who have blessed humanity.
They were the predecessors of rabbinic Jewry, and to this day, Jewish scholars and Rabbinic Jews alike will openly point out that the scribes and Pharisees depicted in the gospel narratives are blatant liars. Practically nothing they say is true. The incredible irony here is that most bible-believing Christians believe quite a bit of what the Pharisees say as if it were true.
  1. The miracles of Jesus, even if they are historical, do not prove he was sent by God.
True, and this is even attested to by Jesus when he points out that only an evil generation seeks a sign and that it is the antichrist who will call down fire from heaven.
  1. Christian doctrine led to centuries of hatred of and persecution on the Jewish people on the part of Christians which culminated in the Holocaust.
Unfortunately, this is basically built into Christian doctrine.
 

dingoling.

Well-known member
Let me start by explaining that in no way do I mean this topic to be a slur on Jews. Nevertheless, it is true that most Jews either ignore the truths of the Gospel or actively deny those truths. Here's a list of some of the more common arguments I've heard Rabbis use against Christian doctrines:
  1. Jesus is not the Messiah.
  2. God did not inspire the New Testament.
  3. There are no passages in the Hebrew Bible that clearly prophesy Jesus or even mention him at all.
  4. The Jewish people never forfeited their role as God's chosen people to the Christian church.
  5. Contrary to the way the Pharisees are portrayed in the Gospels, they were actually good people who have blessed humanity.
  6. The miracles of Jesus, even if they are historical, do not prove he was sent by God.
  7. Christian doctrine led to centuries of hatred of and persecution on the Jewish people on the part of Christians which culminated in the Holocaust.
How can we defend our faith against these charges? I look forward to a lively discussion on this very important issue.
I don't know if we need to defend our faith but we can do as Paul did.

I Corinthians 15:19-23, "For though I am free with respect to all, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I might win more of them. To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though I myself am not under the law) so that I might win those under the law. To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law) so that I might win those outside the law. To the weak I became weak, so that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that I might by all means save some. I do it all for the sake of the gospel, so that I may share in its blessings.
 

Newbirth

Well-known member
Well, since you obviously don't read the Bible:
And Jesus, walking by the sea of Galilee, saw two brethren, Simon called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea: for they were fishers. And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men. And they straightway left their nets, and followed him. And going on from thence, he saw other two brethren, James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, in a ship with Zebedee their father, mending their nets; and he called them. And they immediately left the ship and their father, and followed him. (Mat 4:18-22)

The day following Jesus would go forth into Galilee, and findeth Philip, and saith unto him, Follow me. (Joh 1:43)

And as he passed by, he saw Levi the son of Alphaeus sitting at the receipt of custom, and said unto him, Follow me. And he arose and followed him. (Mar 2:14)

Bold emphasis added.

Six examples, six disciples called. Exactly as I said. Do you need more to correct your incorrect statement?
Where did Jesus say to anyone of them, become a Christian?
And? I thought that was quite clear. I got in this because most of those points require rejection of Jesus as Messiah or acceptance of Jesus as Messiah and a Jew who accepts Jesus as Messiah is a Christian.
Where does the scripture say that? You are making up things.
There could be some discussion of what things God commanded of the Jews that should be followed, but those fall under Romans 14 IMO.
How about
Matthew 16:24
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Well, a number of people, including Jews, disagree with your rejection. Yes, that does include Jews who identify as Christian because they accept Jesus as Messiah.
They disagree with Jesus also. They cannot serve Jesus and Moses at the same time...
And that is total nonsense, woke progressive 1984 newspeak type nonsense.
Nobody is calling the "cat" "bread".
Instead they speak of different types of "cats", but you insist it is all about "bread" in your own little definition.
It is the perfect sense, a cat born in an oven is NOT bread. It does not matter what kind of cat it is.
He was a Jew by faith, birth and culture. He would disagree with your claims.
Rubbish, He was a Jew by religion and he rejected that religion's teaching to follow Jesus.
The DNA is for the fact that they are an ethnicity as well as a religion.
DNA does not identify ethnicity and religion.
You obviously don't know any Jews at all, because they will tell you differently. Including secular Jews and Jews who embrace Jesus as Messiah and are now Christians.
Andrew Klavan speech
They don't follow Jesus, if they did they wouldn't be Jews anymore.
No, you are simply trying to use newspeak definitions to redefine what the meaning of is is. Or vaccine. Or recession. Or definition.
Since you said NO then you agree that cats born in ovens are not bread and babies born in ambulances are not AEVs. So the babble is pointless
 

Newbirth

Well-known member
Okay, you are now claiming that Jesus was not born a Jew?
Jesus was born an Israelite to be king of the Jews. Jesus was brought up under Jewish customs. If he was brought up under Muslim customs he would be a muslim.
In accordance with Jewish prophecy? If Jesus is not born a Jew, the only Jew to ever keep the Law and be saved as such, then that Jesus you proclaim would not be the Jewish Messiah as Jesus stated He was. That puts an end to this thread because such a thing being true would invalidate Christianity totally other than as some made up fairy tale.
The Jewish Messiah is a religious person.
Jesus was born a Jew, of Jewish parents, in the Jewish faith and the Jewish culture.
Jesus was born an Israelite of the tribe of Judah of Israelite parents and grew up under Jewish religious practice.
You do realize that Jews have been identified as Jewish by birth, even if they are secular or Christian by faith?
Just as Hindus and Muslims are identified as Hindus and Muslims by birth. As a matter of fact, Catholic parents consider their children to be born Catholics.
Yes, this includes Jews self-identifying.
But it does not make Jews a race of people. If it does then Muslims, Hindus and Catholics are races of people also.
 

Newbirth

Well-known member
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. (Mat 5:17-20)
No point in any emphasis here since it all contradicts what you are trying to say.
No it does not. I never said Jesus came to destroy the law. He came to redeem Israel from under the law for righteousness.
Romans 10:4
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Does it say the end of the law?
Not going to break it down, but you are quoting out of context for what you are trying to prove. Try Romans 9:30-10:4
But it is very clear...It says Christ is the end of the law for those who believe. So how is it out of context?
Which shows your ignorance of the Bible. I pointed it out to you the simplest way by referencing the 12 Disciples. In another post, I showed where six (6) of them were directly called to follow Jesus (God) by Jesus (God) in the Bible.
Suggest you lose your false belief.
How does that make any sense? He did not call them to be Christians. Jesus is the son of God, is he not? Jesus obeys/ follow his father
LOL, I QUOTED Bible passage where it states how the curse would be reversed.
Where? Reversing a curse is like eating back your words. This curse still applies today...
Deuteronomy 27:26
Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen.
Just in case you have a problem understanding the KJV
CJB
“‘A curse on anyone who does not confirm the words of this Torah by putting them into practice.’ All the people are to say, ‘Amen!’
NLV
‘Cursed is the one who does not obey the words of this Law.’ And all the people will say, ‘Let it be so.’
Okay, it appears you are one of those who thinks that Christians have replaced Jews as the chosen people.
How could that be? I just said God did not call anyone to be a Christian...What part of God did not call anyone to be a Christian do you not understand?
Need to lose that false teaching also.
You need to lose your lack of understanding...
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
JonHawk said:
Glorify God Together
Therefore receive one another, just as Christ also received us, to the glory of God. Rom 15:7
Indeed
I speak the truth in Christ— my conscience confirms it through the Holy Spirit—Rom 9:1
Everyone speaks the truth in Christ dont they, just ask any if they have the truth. LOL
You know that foolish prophets who have seen nothing and those who follow them are both condemned.
Yes, that is why I follow Jesus instead of another such as Paul, or any other man, God is sufficient to provide my spiritual needs. He in me and I in Him are one.
They will bear their guilt—the prophet will be as guilty as the one who consults him. Ezekiel 14:10
It is that way for sure in our churches this day.
 

JonHawk

Well-known member
Indeed
Everyone speaks the truth in Christ dont they, just ask any if they have the truth. LOL
Some are completely ignorant that life is through the Son. 1 John 5:11

But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name. John 20:31
Yes, that is why I follow Jesus instead of another such as Paul, or any other man, God is sufficient to provide my spiritual needs. He in me and I in Him are one.
Is that why you deny Christ at every turn?

For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled,
shall we be saved from sin’s dominion through His [resurrection] life. Rom 5:10
 
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Gary Mac

Well-known member
When an observant Jew reads the New Testament with their own liturgical calendar in mind, it becomes painfully obvious that the gospels are employing a literary device; i.e. they're personifying God's salvation which is by perfect observance of God's commandments.

I've never heard this claim from educated Jews. It's a very Jewish set of documents which is probably why so many Christians don't understand it.

This also doesn't seem to be a popular claim with Jews I've come in contact with either.

Paul affirms this as well. so I don't know where you're getting this from. e.g. :

From Romans chapter 11:

"Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. ...at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

... Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?...
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
... that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: "

They were the predecessors of rabbinic Jewry, and to this day, Jewish scholars and Rabbinic Jews alike will openly point out that the scribes and Pharisees depicted in the gospel narratives are blatant liars. Practically nothing they say is true. The incredible irony here is that most bible-believing Christians believe quite a bit of what the Pharisees say as if it were true.
In my observation from having the God of heaven, who simply is Love and Who came to Jesus and opened to him Who He is and all of His heaven to that man is the same One who came and did the same min me. And by identification with the enlightenment, knowledge, from God Himself, our churches, denominations, are really no different from the Pharisees, Jews, Hebrew, Greek, just different laws they have formed to regulate a belief for a god.
True, and this is even attested to by Jesus when he points out that only an evil generation seeks a sign and that it is the antichrist who will call down fire from heaven.
This is correct and Jesus was very clear in Luke 17:20-21 that the kingdom of God, or at least the God he obeyed and prayed to and called Father, does not come with observation but is within you.
Unfortunately, this is basically built into Christian doctrine.
What most of these call Christian has noting to do with the ways of Jesus at all. For they see a man as a god which actually is spawn from Greek mythology who worshiped men as gods, no different today from those who worship a man named Jesus as a god, or Alla, Muhammad, Buddha, and that list goes on.

Paul entered the term Christ at Antioch, and put that tag on Jesus, which before that term Christ was incorporated into doctrine they were referred to as saints.

Paul had a lot more influence on religion minds than the doctrine Jesus presented ever did. Paul was clear he used trickery to get people to follow him in his assessment for a saint instead of following Jesus in his, and they are not the same teachings at all when you compare what Paul said of himself as a no good sinner, I never heard quoted of Jesus to use that expression in himself. Quite the opposite for Gods perfections to be your own aside from Pauls assessment for sinners.

The astonishing thing for me is between mans doctrines such as Pauls, and what was quoted of Jesus is -- Jesus hands us over to the Father to work His Love in us to have His same mind of Love as He opened in Jesus in Matt 3:16 where Jesus Himself didnt know the God of heaven only the one of the Jews, and where God opened in that man all of who He is and His heaven.

As the story goes Jesus came out of the laws of those Jewish temples that he taught in at a young age until about the age of 30 See Matt 3:16. This is when Jesus went from the laws of those temples to living the Spirit of God Who is Love and walked as He walks in His same light.

Ironic is, the very ones who once reverend Jesus for his knowledge of the law even from a young age are the very ones who had Him crucified for actually becoming like the God of Love to be like Him instead of the stipulations these temples put on their beliefs for a god.

All through the book it is about beliefs, believe this, believe that, do this, dont do that. The beauty of Gods Spirit of Love be in a man, all these laws, regulations, rituals, sin, communion, sacraments, Sabbaths, baptisms, you name it are out the window.

Beliefs are not real. One can believe anything about a God so obvious in all these different beliefs systems which actually use God as a means for enterprise and noting more just fill a pew -- and the best salesman wins.

The only reality of the God of heaven is if one has that same disposition that was described of Jesus in the Father in yourself. The interesting thing in these assessments is -- The way of the God who came to Adam where Adam became like God to know the difference from the laws of Eden to regulate, to the Spirit of God of Love who sets one free from these laws to be like Him instead of the laws man establishes for a belief where Adam came out of to till the ground that God set before him and Adam became like Him in Gen 3:22 to learn this difference. Jesus did the same in Matt 3:16.

As the stories go -- Same happened in Abraham, Moses, Mary, Jesus in Matt 3:16, 120 in an upper room. God Himself came and opened up who He is. Today is no different, He never has changed, same in Adam as He was in Jesus and all today who will receive Him that He actually be manifest in you, not just believe certain things about Him.

In 1 John 3 we read that when one sees Him as He really is, ye shall be like Him. Not like the laws of some temple, denomination, which Jewish beliefs is just another denomination, just as Catholic are just another denomination for law, but to actually be like the God of heaven in yourself and walk as He walks in His same mind just as these we read of who He came to and gave them His same disposition of Love.


The Bible is not an historical document, it is a religious document. Whether these stories in the book are actually history or just good stories for theatrics, the message in them is paramount if one is to come to that state of mind of Love that is not regulated by law but pure and holy caring for they neighbor as yourself which no longer becomes the laws of a book, but actual manifestation in you what the book is about.
 
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Gary Mac

Well-known member
I don't know if we need to defend our faith but we can do as Paul did.

I Corinthians 15:19-23, "For though I am free with respect to all, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I might win more of them. To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though I myself am not under the law) so that I might win those under the law. To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law) so that I might win those outside the law. To the weak I became weak, so that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that I might by all means save some. I do it all for the sake of the gospel, so that I may share in its blessings.
It is better for me to do what Jesus said instead of Paul.
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
Some are completely ignorant that life is through the Son. 1 John 5:11
That is because they do not have the wod of God in them to be like Him as Jesus was like Him. But when, or if you ever see Him as He is ye shall be like Him to. 1 John 3.
But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name. John 20:31
Only if you receive the same from God as Jesus did in Matt 3:16.
Is that why you deny Christ at every turn?
Deny Christ? I am that person of Christ that God demands of you as well.

Why do you deny God to have His anointing, Christ, in you? Denying the very one God puts in man as He did in Jesus in Matt 3:16.

You really do not know what God is about, to you your god is only an object for worship, an idol than can do noting at all in you.
For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled,
shall we be saved from sin’s dominion through His [resurrection] life. Rom 5:10
But Paul never was saved from sin, he never stated he was sin free, he continually battled with it and never gave himself over to God as Jesus did to be without sin.

I know you cant see that because Paul is your god, but that is the truth and you can read it yourself. Quote to me where Jesus had an issue with sin in himself, I bet that you cant! And that is exactly why I follow the ways of Jesus in Gods perfections than Paul in his god of imperfections. He had a form of godliness but never knew the power of God who takes away the sins of this world, and obviously you dont either!
 

Unknown Soldier

Active member
Darn, I was hoping this was going so well here I hoped it would just by a "like" for a reply...
You'll need to earn that like.
Read a list of Nazi leaders. Read Mein Kampf. Read Marx. Read Engels. Here, read the Humanist Manifestos. I don't refuse to back them up, but to me this stuff has been proven to myself for decades after lots of research into some dark topics. Yes, I know, for the professors (not followers) of Christ, the various antiSemitic claims of the "guilt" of the Jews was pushed to keep them quiet, but if you want a trip into darkness, you can read a bunch of the source materials.
OK, then you don't have an example of any atheist Nazis who caused the Holocaust. I will as you suggest check Mein Kampf, though, to see if Hitler said he was an atheist. Here's one quotation:

I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator.
- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 2

That conduct included Hitler's causing the Holocaust. So it's wrong to say that Hitler was an avowed atheist or that he caused the Holocaust because he was an atheist. Now you know. If you continue to make that claim, then you are lying.

I mean, the first thing to establish might perhaps be why anyone would think international socialism (which persecutes by class rather than race/ethnicity, but has been known to happily persecute based on race/ethnicity) and national socialism (which persecutes by race/ethnicity, but has been known to happily persecute based on class) with virtually identical governmental forms are somehow opposites of each other except in a limited Eurocentric context. OTOH, it is easier to say "left" and "right" as a verbal shorthand in common usage.
You may have a different understanding of "socialism" than I do, but if we understand it as the government owning and running welfare services, then socialism is practiced by virtually all developed nations including the US and European countries. Since capitalism only provides for the economic "winners," governments need to prevent abject poverty among the "losers" by taxing those with wealth and transferring that wealth to those who need vital resources like food and shelter.
Do you actually think that the New Testament teaches something even like the Holocaust?
That is the only valid apologetic to claims that "Christians caused the Holocaust".
Of course the New Testament doesn't command anything like the Holocaust, and I think most Jews realize that. However, many Jews and other people see that "one thing led to another" which is to say that over the centuries many Christians interpreted their own scriptures as anti-Jewish. One need not be an Einstein to see how that mindset could lead to persecution.
The actual context was Jesus teaching in the Temple. (John 8:2) So the "disciples" would have been those listening to His teaching.
In the passage in question, yes, it is directed against the Jews rejecting Christ, but the further teaching shows that it addresses all of those who reject God.
Yes, and that's why many Christians have persecuted others and not just Jews by interpreting such passages as being against some classes of people.
Yes, I'm well aware that many who call themselves Christian have twisted Scripture to persecute all those they wish to, the Jews included.
You'll need to explain to Jews that the "untwisted Christian scripture" is no threat to them.
Did the Pharisees act as "superior Jews" before God?
Stuart E. Rosenberg answers "yes" in his book The Christian Problem: A Jewish View. He credits the Pharisees for starting some of the earliest schools and universities, for example. Not bad for "blind fools," now is it?
 

JonHawk

Well-known member
Some are completely ignorant that life is through the Son. 1 John 5:11

But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name. John 20:31

Is that why you deny Christ at every turn?

For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled,
shall we be saved from sin’s dominion through His [resurrection] life. Rom 5:10
That is because they do not have the wod of God in them to be like Him as Jesus was like Him. But when, or if you ever see Him as He is ye shall be like Him to. 1 John 3.
But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe. John 5:38
I am that person of Christ ...
You're a legend in your own mind.
Why do you deny God to have His anointing, Christ, in you?
Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?...2 Cor 13:5
You really do not know what God is about, to you your god is only an object for worship, an idol than can do noting at all in you.
That He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you. John 14
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe. John 5:38
Not your word for sure, but I do have the same word of God in me Jesus had in himself from the Father Himself.

You to could have the same word in you as Jesus had in himself, but because you you do not believe Jesus and cling to Pauls ways, Gods word goes to someone else who will receive Him and His word within.

Your word is a book LOL, God word is Spirit and comes from God Himself, not from a book.

When you look at the sky, stars, the moon, did that come from a book, or actual reality of existence?
if you wold look at God the same way as the sky, moon and stars, then you won't need a book at all for God Himself will come to you and sup with you Himself.

Jesus was very clear that in that day ye shall ask me noting but go to the Father for yourself and He will give it you, but because you reject Him in favor of a book, then the ones in the book such as Paul is all that you know from someones else's perspective who was not like the Christ at all but like the sinner he preached that you are from a book LOL
You're a legend in your own mind.
Actually the legend is my mind, the mind of Christ.
Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?...2 Cor 13:5
You won't even takes Paul opinions LOL. You won't test yourself to see if you are as Jesus was or not.

And what Paul never learned from God Himself is Jesus is not in anyone, it is Christ who indwells man and the same One who indwells Jesus in Matt 3:16.

Paul has a spell on you that you refuse to break.
That He may abide with you forever—
God abides in me forever, not with me. I watch with Him, you watch for Him.
17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you. John 14
Just as He did in Jesus in Matt 3:16.

You never have learned from ignorance, that Jesus never ever spoke of himself but only the Father who sent him. Jesus never spoke of himself. When he said. When Jesus spoke of things such as I Am, he wasn't referring to himself LOL, he never spoke of himself but spoke only of the Father, and said so, you just dont believe Jesu in his own words, but because you are so blinded by Paul you cant see the light of Christ, Gods anointing in you, Christ in you, that Jesus spoke of. You are so lost.
 

Unknown Soldier

Active member
When an observant Jew reads the New Testament with their own liturgical calendar in mind, it becomes painfully obvious that the gospels are employing a literary device; i.e. they're personifying God's salvation which is by perfect observance of God's commandments.
Schnark, I'm still in awe over your revelation that a 200-pound Jesus cannot be stuffed into a paperback book, but I digress.

Now, I'm wondering how what you're saying here has anything to do with Jews saying Jesus is not the Messiah. You'll need to clarify.
I've never heard this claim from educated Jews.
Then I must have been listening to "ignorant" Jews my whole life. Most Jews don't believe God inspired the New Testament. Check YouTube to see what Rabbis Skobac and Singer think of the New Testament. Both men are obviously educated Jews.
It's a very Jewish set of documents which is probably why so many Christians don't understand it.
I suppose you're right, but I don't see what that has to do with what Jews think of the New Testament.
This also doesn't seem to be a popular claim with Jews I've come in contact with either.
See Rabbis Skobac and Singer! They work hard to refute the Christian belief that the Jewish scriptures predict Jesus.
Paul affirms this as well. so I don't know where you're getting this from.
I've heard Christians say that they rather than Jews are now God's chosen people. For example, as a Catholic schoolboy I sang the song Priestly People Kingly People. It was written by Lucien Deiss, a Roman Catholic priest. In that song Christians are said to be "God's chosen people."
They were the predecessors of rabbinic Jewry, and to this day, Jewish scholars and Rabbinic Jews alike will openly point out that the scribes and Pharisees depicted in the gospel narratives are blatant liars. Practically nothing they say is true.
Sure, the Pharisees are depicted in the Gospels as liars, and that depiction is exactly what Jews take issue with. Personally, I agree that that depiction is hard to swallow. It makes the Pharisees out to be comic-book style villains who only live to destroy the heroic Jesus. While I'm sure that some Pharisees did evil on some occasions, I don't think they were any worse than most other people.
The incredible irony here is that most bible-believing Christians believe quite a bit of what the Pharisees say as if it were true.
Can you elaborate?
True, and this is even attested to by Jesus when he points out that only an evil generation seeks a sign and that it is the antichrist who will call down fire from heaven.
I don't think your example demonstrates that Jesus said that working miracles is not a sure sign that a person has God's sanction. Rather, Jesus is saying that "An evil and adulterous generation asks for a sign..." Evil people seeking miracles is not the same as evil people performing miracles. Contrary to what you say, we do have plain evidence that Jesus did believe miracles are a sign of his being "the one who is to come." See Matthew 11:2-5.
Unfortunately, this is basically built into Christian doctrine.
So you agree that Christian doctrine did result in the Holocaust?
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
Schnark, I'm still in awe over your revelation that a 200-pound Jesus cannot be stuffed into a paperback book, but I digress.
If you truly believe that you wish to be treated the way you treat others, then you might want to give your vague and pointless digressions a rest. If you think I can't take a joke, I can, but I prefer to take them from those who can take one right back without whining about being attacked or having their feelings hurt.
Now, I'm wondering how what you're saying here has anything to do with Jews saying Jesus is not the Messiah. You'll need to clarify.
Jews believe that the way to the world to come comes about through meticulous observance to the Mosaic law. Jesus personifies that belief. The name means "God's salvation" which is personified in perfect adherence to God's will.
Then I must have been listening to "ignorant" Jews my whole life.
Agreed.
I suppose you're right, but I don't see what that has to do with what Jews think of the New Testament.
It has to do with where they're getting their information from, i.e. ignorant Christians.
I've heard Christians say that they rather than Jews are now God's chosen people.
And as I already pointed out, the practical founder of Christianity has refuted that claim using the Hebrew scriptures which Christians routinely ignore which is why they are ignorant of these facts.
Sure, the Pharisees are depicted in the Gospels as liars, and that depiction is exactly what Jews take issue with.
Not all Pharisees and not all Jews. Plenty of Jewish scholars have noted that what the Pharisees claim within these narratives is false.
Can you elaborate?
Christians believe that Jesus violated the Sabbath by healing someone on the Sabbath. They believe that by ignoring the traditions of the elders, Christ's disciples somehow are now exempt from the dietary laws which is a blatant Non Sequitur. They believe that they cannot walk through a field of standing grain and eat as they're walking if they're walking on the Sabbath. Peter points out the Pharisaic tradition of associating with gentiles is unlawful, but the Mosaic law openly allows for it, and the Talmud not only allows for Jews to dine with gentiles, but to eat from the same bowl. The Pharisees are presented as liars, and Christ openly accuses them of being the descendants of "the father of lies". Christians don't believe Christ's own words in their own bibles.
I don't think your example demonstrates that Jesus said that working miracles is not a sure sign that a person has God's sanction.
If you mean that the antichrist is an integral feature of God's plan, then I agree. This does not mean that God allows his chosen to follow after the antichrist though. God doesn't sanction what belongs to Christ to be lost to the antichrist, not a single one.
Rather, Jesus is saying that "An evil and adulterous generation asks for a sign..." Evil people seeking miracles is not the same as evil people performing miracles.
And yet evil people seeking miracles will be persuaded by evil people performing miracles which is my point. Likewise, evil people will not be persuaded to the gospel message by Christ's miracles because they can't hear the gospel message to begin with. They're only interested in miracles. They aren't interested in what these signs point to.
Contrary to what you say,
False.
we do have plain evidence that Jesus did believe miracles are a sign of his being "the one who is to come." See Matthew 11:2-5.
Yes, by definition, a sign is a substitution. It points to something else rather than to itself. See the difference?
So you agree that Christian doctrine did result in the Holocaust?
Christian doctrine and interpretation as distinguished from the gospel narratives, although I don't see it as a primary driver. The bible openly points out that there are those who claim to be Jews but are not Jews at all. Deception is the prime driver of antisemitism.
 
Let me start by explaining that in no way do I mean this topic to be a slur on Jews.

First of all I acknowledge your disclaimer; of not insulting the Jews. Jesus, and all of the apostles and most of the early Christians were Jews. Before that the prophets of old. But, so were many of the wicked in the Hebrew and Christian scriptures. Disagreement is not the same thing as disrespect. That goes both ways. I think the term anti-Semitic is abused to silence disagreement, but it's also used rightfully. Odd, really isn't it? Semitic is a language, not a race. The Arabs and Jews are, generally and historically speaking - enemies - but both are Semitic speaking peoples. Which are anti-Semitic? Both? Similarly, the term antichrist is used in a similar way. Just an aside.

Nevertheless, it is true that most Jews either ignore the truths of the Gospel or actively deny those truths. Here's a list of some of the more common arguments I've heard Rabbis use against Christian doctrines:
  1. Jesus is not the Messiah.
  2. God did not inspire the New Testament.
  3. There are no passages in the Hebrew Bible that clearly prophesy Jesus or even mention him at all.
  4. The Jewish people never forfeited their role as God's chosen people to the Christian church.
  5. Contrary to the way the Pharisees are portrayed in the Gospels, they were actually good people who have blessed humanity.
  6. The miracles of Jesus, even if they are historical, do not prove he was sent by God.
  7. Christian doctrine led to centuries of hatred of and persecution on the Jewish people on the part of Christians which culminated in the Holocaust.
How can we defend our faith against these charges? I look forward to a lively discussion on this very important issue.

Debate, I suppose. Of each of the points given. Debate, however, is an art form or a game of sorts. I've lost debates when I was right and won debates when I was wrong. Debate has taught me a great deal, though, both about the subjects I debate and about myself and people in general. Ideally it makes you aware of your strengths and weaknesses, it corrects you when necessary and compels you, through ego if nothing else, to do tedious research and study.

But it doesn't do much else.

I'm a student of the Bible. My studies are Biblical rather than theological. I tend to avoid theology and religious doctrine unless I'm confronted with it as it may relate to some Biblical interpretation. I do know that in the summer of 332 BCE the influence of Greek philosophy had a devastating impact on Jewish thinking after the conquest of Alexander the Great. I think that is the primary reason Jesus had such difficulty with the Jewish religious leaders of his time. They coveted the potential power and prestige that they perceived the Aaronic priests as having and after the destruction of the temple by the Romans in 70 CE and the end of that system they took over, so to speak. That is where modern-day Judaism comes from. A traditional deviation.

However, the same exact thing happened to Christianity in 325 CE. In that case the Greek philosophy introduced, or at least popularized, through Constantine the Great. Christ came to fulfill the law, while the Jews pursued their tradition without the messiah.

On each of the points, just off the top of my head without and new or specific study and research, I would respond:

1. If Jesus is not the Messiah, then who? The official records were kept in the temple and point only to one man of all who ever lived since that time. Since those records were destroyed shortly thereafter (70 CE) a rightful messiah of the magnitude of Jesus can't be established. In the general sense of a messiah - well you would have to examine interpretation. Savior? King? Anointed? The Jews of Jesus time, it seems to me, where expecting a political or military savior so they rejected Jesus. I suppose like anything else that could be debated ad infinitum but it doesn't solve the problem.

2. That seems amorphous to me. The terms "Old" and "New" testament are inaccurate and create the illusion of some division being made. Also, the thing about scripture, that is Jehovah God's inspired word as given to the writers of the Bible, is that the translation isn't inspired and so can't accurately reflect the original. The former was infallible and the latter fallible. So, in a sense the second point is somewhat ambiguous. In one sense or another it could be either true or false. Not a good place to start a debate. Clarification is needed.

3. Well, that just needs to be clarified and kicked around for a couple more thousand years unless something else comes up. After all, what does the claim actually mean? The Hebrew scripture doesn't foretell a messiah or a specific messiah?

4. Hmm. That certainly is debatable but irrelevant. It wasn't their call.

5. Jesus had mindset demonstrated in Mark 10:18 whereas the Pharisees were represented in illustration at Luke 18:9-14 with a totally different mindset. Now, both attitudes are common among us all as human beings or the parable would have been pointless. Christian and Jew alike. When I read the Pirkei Avot which do I see most prominent? I see some wisdom, and I see some of the attributes the Pharisees as illustrated in the Christian scripture. One could argue that the Jews are extreme examples of not only both of those attributes but a history that is both blessed and cursed. However, that doesn't mean that either are true. And the same could be said of all of humanity from Adam on.

6 In at least some sense I agree with this. "Miracles" throughout the Bible (Hebrew and Christian) occurred in a specific time and place for specific reasons. When reading the Bible one may get the false impression that those events were perhaps more common than they actually were. Moses, when facing off with the magic practicing priests of Pharaoh, by today's standards, could have been said to have given him a pretty good run for his money. Since demons can perform those sorts of acts to some degree people can be mislead by them. So, all sorts of false accusations were made by the religious leaders in application to Jesus himself. In that sense they could be attributed, even though falsely, as such. It's a matter of perception or deception.

Likewise, in our time, many different sects can claim divine inspiration or guidance by the holy spirit. Which is highly unlikely to be true of 99% of them since they aren't in accord with one another. On the other hand, we are all imperfect and no religion is infallible.

Also, in the case of Jesus and the apostles, those sorts of signs were designed to establish the church (Christian congregation) on a global scale and to strengthen the faith of those who may have needed it.

7. Christians persecuted Jews and Jews persecuted Christians. It seems more political than religious to me, though admittedly the two are very similar; one becoming the other. There's great potential for abuse in the mere discussion of the holocaust. From personal experience I now know not to bother having that discussion unless the unlikely possibility of an honest discussion based upon facts presents itself.
 

JonHawk

Well-known member
Not your word for sure, but I do have the same word of God in me Jesus had in himself from the Father Himself.
Calm down legend, the word is Jesus Christ. John 1:1-4
You to could have the same word in you as Jesus had in himself, but because you you do not believe Jesus and cling to Pauls ways, Gods word goes to someone else who will receive Him and His word within.
Your ignorance only applies to yourself. As many as received and believed in His name, to them He gave the right to be children of God. John 1:12-13
Your word is a book LOL, God word is Spirit and comes from God Himself, not from a book.
According to the book, Scripture He died for our sins, was buried and raised on the third day.
When you look at the sky, stars, the moon, did that come from a book, or actual reality of existence?
I'm not an astrologer. My salvation comes from Christ. Look to the things of above, when Christ who is our life is revealed, you will partake in His glory.
Actually the legend is my mind, the mind of Christ.
Congratulations legend. Do you want a ribbon?
And what Paul never learned from God Himself is Jesus is not in anyone, it is Christ who indwells man and the same One who indwells Jesus in Matt 3:16.
In Paul's teaching, in Christ we are a new creation based on His work of redemption.
Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ; 2 Cor 5
but because you are so blinded by Paul you cant see the light of Christ,
But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. 2 Cor 4
 
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Gary Mac

Well-known member
First of all I acknowledge your disclaimer; of not insulting the Jews. Jesus, and all of the apostles and most of the early Christians were Jews. Before that the prophets of old. But, so were many of the wicked in the Hebrew and Christian scriptures. Disagreement is not the same thing as disrespect. That goes both ways. I think the term anti-Semitic is abused to silence disagreement, but it's also used rightfully. Odd, really isn't it? Semitic is a language, not a race. The Arabs and Jews are, generally and historically speaking - enemies - but both are Semitic speaking peoples. Which are anti-Semitic? Both? Similarly, the term antichrist is used in a similar way. Just an aside.



Debate, I suppose. Of each of the points given. Debate, however, is an art form or a game of sorts. I've lost debates when I was right and won debates when I was wrong. Debate has taught me a great deal, though, both about the subjects I debate and about myself and people in general. Ideally it makes you aware of your strengths and weaknesses, it corrects you when necessary and compels you, through ego if nothing else, to do tedious research and study.

But it doesn't do much else.

I'm a student of the Bible. My studies are Biblical rather than theological. I tend to avoid theology and religious doctrine unless I'm confronted with it as it may relate to some Biblical interpretation. I do know that in the summer of 332 BCE the influence of Greek philosophy had a devastating impact on Jewish thinking after the conquest of Alexander the Great. I think that is the primary reason Jesus had such difficulty with the Jewish religious leaders of his time. They coveted the potential power and prestige that they perceived the Aaronic priests as having and after the destruction of the temple by the Romans in 70 CE and the end of that system they took over, so to speak. That is where modern-day Judaism comes from. A traditional deviation.
May I ask -- What have you gained in just studying the Bible? If it is only a study without application then it is just a good read for theatrical entertainment leaving room for speculation for the intent of the authors of it.
However, the same exact thing happened to Christianity in 325 CE. In that case the Greek philosophy introduced, or at least popularized, through Constantine the Great. Christ came to fulfill the law, while the Jews pursued their tradition without the messiah.

On each of the points, just off the top of my head without and new or specific study and research, I would respond:

1. If Jesus is not the Messiah, then who? The official records were kept in the temple and point only to one man of all who ever lived since that time. Since those records were destroyed shortly thereafter (70 CE) a rightful messiah of the magnitude of Jesus can't be established. In the general sense of a messiah - well you would have to examine interpretation. Savior? King? Anointed? The Jews of Jesus time, it seems to me, where expecting a political or military savior so they rejected Jesus. I suppose like anything else that could be debated ad infinitum but it doesn't solve the problem.
The messiah is the One who came to Jesus and opened up who He is and all of His heaven in that man. Matt 3:16, same One who came to Adam where he became like God in Gen 3:22 just as Jesus did in Matt 3:16, Abraham received the messiah, God Spirit, Moses did on the mountain, Jesus in Matt 3:16, 120 in an upper room and all today who has receieve the One who does the saving as Jesus and these others receieved from Gods Spirit Who is the messiah and the only one who can make you as Himself, which is His salvation and walk as He walks in Hs same light as all of these we read of did.

BTW, the Bible is not an historical document, it s a religious document.
2. That seems amorphous to me. The terms "Old" and "New" testament are inaccurate and create the illusion of some division being made. Also, the thing about scripture, that is Jehovah God's inspired word as given to the writers of the Bible, is that the translation isn't inspired and so can't accurately reflect the original. The former was infallible and the latter fallible. So, in a sense the second point is somewhat ambiguous. In one sense or another it could be either true or false. Not a good place to start a debate. Clarification is needed.
Yes, the term old is those of the laws to regulate a belief and every denomination has established their own laws to govern their beliefs for a god. The new is a change in data that doesnt come by law but by Spirit. Jesus was not the first to experience this enlightenment at all, far from it, Adam receieved this change, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, 120 and all today do who has receieve that same enlightenment.

It isn't natural and is regulated by law, it is spirit that is not regulated by law, it is who we are not what we are whether one is of some laws of such as Catholic, Mormon, Muslim, Baptists, etc. but a data opens that one did not have prior. The interesting thing in this is, it happens instantly, in the twinkling of an eye corruption puts on incorruption. Now we have an issue of what is corrupt? To the house of Catholic, is what is corrupt to the house of Mormon, what is corrupt to the house of Muslims, Baptists etc. They all accuse the other of corrupt doctrines LOL.
3. Well, that just needs to be clarified and kicked around for a couple more thousand years unless something else comes up. After all, what does the claim actually mean? The Hebrew scripture doesn't foretell a messiah or a specific messiah?
It is pretty evident that something changed the lives of a couple off these Hebrews, I read of only two made that promised change. Joshua, and I have forgotten the other for it has been a very long time sense I studied these things. Was it Arron? Cant remember.
4. Hmm. That certainly is debatable but irrelevant. It wasn't their call.

5. Jesus had mindset demonstrated in Mark 10:18 whereas the Pharisees were represented in illustration at Luke 18:9-14 with a totally different mindset. Now, both attitudes are common among us all as human beings or the parable would have been pointless. Christian and Jew alike. When I read the Pirkei Avot which do I see most prominent? I see some wisdom, and I see some of the attributes the Pharisees as illustrated in the Christian scripture. One could argue that the Jews are extreme examples of not only both of those attributes but a history that is both blessed and cursed. However, that doesn't mean that either are true. And the same could be said of all of humanity from Adam on.
The laws of the Jews are not much different from the laws of our denominations today, they all have designed laws to govern their beliefs for a god.
6 In at least some sense I agree with this. "Miracles" throughout the Bible (Hebrew and Christian) occurred in a specific time and place for specific reasons. When reading the Bible one may get the false impression that those events were perhaps more common than they actually were. Moses, when facing off with the magic practicing priests of Pharaoh, by today's standards, could have been said to have given him a pretty good run for his money. Since demons can perform those sorts of acts to some degree people can be mislead by them. So, all sorts of false accusations were made by the religious leaders in application to Jesus himself. In that sense they could be attributed, even though falsely, as such. It's a matter of perception or deception.
Or perhaps just a good story for theatrics? In the culture of the day theatre was very popular and much as we have today that captivates the mind. What is the difference between the stories of Moses out to save a Hebrew nation, from Luke Skywalker out to save the universe from the dark side? Perhaps in 2000 yeas people will see ole Luke as a messiah?

Had to continue post in another reply.
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
Continued

Likewise, in our time, many different sects can claim divine inspiration or guidance by the holy spirit. Which is highly unlikely to be true of 99% of them since they aren't in accord with one another. On the other hand, we are all imperfect and no religion is infallible.
Agreed. There is only one sure fire truth about a God who simply is Love. Love is the only perfect thing on this planet that never changes, everything else changes but not Love, same yesterday as today and will be the same tomorrow: but a God so simple doesnt make for good entertainment from a pulpit.

People seek the sensational instead of the simplicity of Love. For the God of His kingdom is Love. Jesus was pretty clear in Luke 17:20-21 where the God of Love resides.
Also, in the case of Jesus and the apostles, those sorts of signs were designed to establish the church (Christian congregation) on a global scale and to strengthen the faith of those who may have needed it.
But our churches has left that design and has formed their own religions called denominations.

Funny one church says this is the truth. The church across the street says no that isn't the truth, this is the truth, and one on the next corner says, you both are wrong -- this is the truth. LOL
7. Christians persecuted Jews and Jews persecuted Christians. It seems more political than religious to me, though admittedly the two are very similar; one becoming the other. There's great potential for abuse in the mere discussion of the holocaust. From personal experience I now know not to bother having that discussion unless the unlikely possibility of an honest discussion based upon facts presents itself.
It is all about politics I Agee. One such as Paul was one of the better politicians in the book for he has duped a whole lot more to follow him as a sinner he said he was than Jesus ever convinced that he had the better way and without sin.

Describe sin, ask any of these what sin is and likely you will get multiple answers, but according to Jesus sin is to be separated from God who is Love to be like Him.

These cant see an invisible God so they have to put an image in their minds for a god so they chose the image of a man named Jesus to be their god instead of the God who came to Jesus in Matt 3:16 and opens up who He is and was in that man. These cant believe that what they cannot see as an image. And one cannot see the Spirit of Love, or Holy Spirit it is referred to in the book, but only see where He has been through those who are of Love. These do extraordinary things, supernatural things not common to religious minds who most of the time will deny miracles can happen. The denomination of The Church of Christ are notorious for this belief, to them, miracles passed away with the last apostle lol.

Anyway I perceive you have a very open mind and I love that in a person instead of some who are stuck in some laws and cant break away to learn something that is foreign to their understanding.

I try my best to get people to think in other terms beside what they have been programmed to believe through these religious minds of law, but as you can see their minds are closed to anything that would disrupt their current knowledge and to these I am a devil LOL
 
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