Defending Gay Christianity

Just translated this from the Greek. It says absolutely nothing about angels, and there is absolutely no indication that it refers back to anything related to what was going on at the flood. To try to make it so is eisegesis of the highest order. The attempt to twist the passage so that it is not opposed to homosexuality, which it clearly is, is dishonest.

This is what I got from the Greek.

And likewise the males, abandoning the natural sexual relations with females, inflamed with strong sensual desire for others of themselves (other males), males with males committing indecency (the Greek using a euphemism for the genitals) and receiving the penalty of their error in themselves.

No angels. It is a clear address of homosexuality, and not a good one.
To deny this is simply denial...the first step to enablement, which has never been effective therapy, despite the efforts of the US Government in that direction. If scripture is sufficient, the debate ends with Paul and Moses. If scripture is not sufficient...continue the debate, do not acknowledge God as God...and invent your own religion as they did in judges: Do what seems right in your own eyes.

You will see what happens to a mind when God has given it over to depravity. It will not be pretty...but it will affirm what we've been warned against.
 
Just translated this from the Greek. It says absolutely nothing about angels, and there is absolutely no indication that it refers back to anything related to what was going on at the flood. To try to make it so is eisegesis of the highest order. The attempt to twist the passage so that it is not opposed to homosexuality, which it clearly is, is dishonest.

This is what I got from the Greek.

And likewise the males, abandoning the natural sexual relations with females, inflamed with strong sensual desire for others of themselves (other males), males with males committing indecency (the Greek using a euphemism for the genitals) and receiving the penalty of their error in themselves.

No angels. It is a clear address of homosexuality, and not a good one.
The context is about fallen spirits who transformed into matter. It is entirely consistent with Nazarene speculation pertaining to theogony and cosmogony. You dont know about it because the Roman church keeps you from knowing it starting way back when they destroyed the historical evidence for the original jewish-christian interpretations of scripture (so not your fault).

Prior to our material world there was a world of light in which divine beings rebelled and ended up forming the material world to rule over. Simply, they formed matter in the shadow of heaven becoming matter itself to include the flesh of animals and men. The judgment against them was being bound to and by matter. Matter is the “chains” that binds them.

Claiming to be wise, they [the fallen spirits] became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.​

Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.​

Hippolytus talks about it in his polemics against the Nassenes, —the Nassenes holding the perspective of fallen spirits, hippolytus holding the catholic position. I dont have the time to find it at the moment. It is also repeated almost word for word in the clementine homilies in the context of fallen angels.

Paul is talking about fallen spirits. It is obvious in light of the historical context, —something you lack.

The idea of “unseemly acts” pertains to the spirits abandoning their divine nature to pursue pleasure alone. It has to do with the mystery of marriage between male and female, ie., moral consciousness and existence, respectively —NOT biological sex! The spirits abandoned their moral consciousness and pursued the pleasures of existence alone >> “unseemly acts”.

Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church. (Eph. 5:31)​
There is so much that you do not know which the Roman church destroyed two thousand years ago but is now rediscovered through modern archaeology.

Finally, one quick note about “anthropos,” it can mean humans or Adam. In this case Paul is arguably referring to the sinful nature of anthropos or first Adam as flesh, as in “the Man of sin”. To wit, fallen spirits and sinful flesh of all humans go hand in hand. It has nothing to do with biological sex or sexual attraction. For the sake of brevity will stop here.
 
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The context is about fallen spirits who transformed into matter. It is entirely consistent with Nazarene speculation pertaining to theogony and cosmogony. You dont know about it because the Roman church keeps you from knowing it starting way back when they destroyed the historical evidence for the original jewish-christian interpretations of scripture (so not your fault).

Prior to our material world there was a world of light in which divine beings rebelled and ended up forming the material world to rule over. Simply, they formed matter in the shadow of heaven becoming matter itself to include the flesh of animals and men. The judgment against them was being bound to and by matter. Matter is the “chains” that binds them.

Claiming to be wise, they [the fallen spirits] became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.​

Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.​

Hippolytus talks about it in his polemics against the Nassenes, —the Nassenes holding the perspective of fallen spirits, hippolytus holding the catholic position. I dont have the time to find it at the moment. It is also repeated almost word for word in the clementine homilies in the context of fallen angels.

Paul is talking about fallen spirits. It is obvious in light of the historical context, —something you lack.

The idea of “unseemly acts” pertains to the spirits abandoning their divine nature to pursue pleasure alone. It has to do with the mystery of marriage between male and female, ie., moral consciousness and existence, respectively —NOT biological sex! The spirits abandoned their moral consciousness and pursued the pleasures of existence alone >> “unseemly acts”.

Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church. (Eph. 5:31)​
There is so much that you do not know which the Roman church destroyed two thousand years ago but is now rediscovered through modern archaeology.

Finally, one quick note about “anthropos,” it can mean humans or Adam. In this case Paul is arguably referring to the sinful nature of anthropos or first Adam as flesh, as in “the Man of sin”. To wit, fallen spirits and sinful flesh of all humans go hand in hand. It has nothing to do with biological sex or sexual attraction. For the sake of brevity will stop here.

Oooh. You know a Greek work. Tell you what, when you can find "anthropos" in the passage I'll be impressed. Until then, I'll trust my GNT that is right in front of me, and trust me, "anthropos" does not appear in the passage. But you pretend you can play Greek if it makes you feel better.

You are trying desperately to make your own need to justify yourself fit into Scripture. They call that eisegesis. Anyone can see that your are forcing pieces to fit, and it is a very weak attempt.
 
@JohnDeVitoOfOld

Here is the reference from the clementine homilies that parallels what Paul wrote in romans 1

Fall of Angels, clementine homiliesFall of angels, Romans 1
"For of the spirits who inhabit the heaven, the angels who dwell in the lowest region, being grieved at the ingratitude of men to God, asked that they might come into the life of men, that, really becoming men, by more intercourse they might convict those who had acted ungratefully towards Him, and might subject every one to adequate punishment. When, therefore, their petition was granted, they metamorphosed themselves into every nature; for, being of a more godlike substance, they are able easily to assume any form. So they became precious stones, and goodly pearl, and the most beauteous purple, and choice gold, and all matter that is held in most esteem. And they fell into the hands of some, and into the bosoms of others, and suffered themselves to be stolen by them. They also changed themselves into beasts and reptiles, and fishes and birds, and into whatsoever they pleased. These things also the poets among yourselves, by reason of fearlessness, sing, as they befell, attributing to one the many and diverse doings of all.

"But when, having assumed these forms, they convicted as covetous those who stole them, and changed themselves into the nature of men, in order that, living holily, and showing the possibility of so living, they might subject the ungrateful to punishment, yet having become in all respects men, they also partook of human lust, and being brought under its subjection they fell into cohabitation with women; and being involved with them, and sunk in defilement and altogether emptied of their first power, were unable to turn back to the first purity of their proper nature, their members turned away from their fiery substance :* for the fire itself, being extinguished by the weight of lust, [and changed] into flesh, they trode the impious path downward. For they themselves, being fettered with the bonds of flesh, were constrained and strongly bound; wherefore they have no more been able to ascend into the heavens.
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they
are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.
Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.
 
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Oooh. You know a Greek work. Tell you what, when you can find "anthropos" in the passage I'll be impressed. Until then, I'll trust my GNT that is right in front of me, and trust me, "anthropos" does not appear in the passage. But you pretend you can play Greek if it makes you feel better.

You are trying desperately to make your own need to justify yourself fit into Scripture. They call that eisegesis. Anyone can see that your are forcing pieces to fit, and it is a very weak attempt.
“they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man [Greek: anthropos] and birds and animals and creeping things.” Romans 1:23)

In the historical context it is the fallen spirits who turn from their divine nature and pursue pleasures in the material world as sinful flesh which is characterized by Paul as “unseemly acts”. Moreover, it makes no logical sense that the material world ended up in its fallen state because one human was sexually attracted to the same sex. Not even close. Instead the fallen state of our world is due to rebellion in heaven among divine beings, ie., “angels”. They were cast out to rule the material world in matter or flesh.
 
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@JohnDeVitoOfOld

The fallen spirits are the “invisible things” from which the material world was made, “being understood” by the apostles and prophets of God. It is entirely consistent with Nazarene speculative theology regarding cosmogenesis and theogony. You dont perceive it because your church has misled you.


(NKJ) For since the creation of the world His invisible things are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, (Romans 1:20)​
 
@JohnDeVitoOfOld

The fallen spirits are the “invisible things” from which the material world was made, “being understood” by the apostles and prophets of God. It is entirely consistent with Nazarene speculative theology regarding cosmogenesis and theogony. You dont perceive it because your church has misled you.


(NKJ) For since the creation of the world His invisible things are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, (Romans 1:20)​
You don't understand scripture. You utilize eisegesis instead of actual exegesis. You are being willfully ignorant of what God has consistently said. He has not misled us. You and those who adhere to your positions to mislead. No surprise.
 
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You don't understand scripture. You utilize eisegesis instead of actual exegesis. You are being willfully ignorant of what God has consistently said. He has not misled us. You and those who adhere to your positions to mislead. No surprise.
There is so much you dont know because christians like you live in a bubble talking only to yourselves, telling each other what you want to hear, while the world scholars, archaeologists, and scientists have gained knowledge of our world and recovered the original interpretations of scripture which the roman church opposed and prevented anyone from hearing especially by the fourth century. You are a dinosaur my friend and do not realize your extinction is nigh.
 
@JohnDeVitoOfOld

Here is the reference from the clementine homilies that parallels what Paul wrote in romans 1

Fall of Angels, clementine homiliesFall of angels, Romans 1
"For of the spirits who inhabit the heaven, the angels who dwell in the lowest region, being grieved at the ingratitude of men to God, asked that they might come into the life of men, that, really becoming men, by more intercourse they might convict those who had acted ungratefully towards Him, and might subject every one to adequate punishment. When, therefore, their petition was granted, they metamorphosed themselves into every nature; for, being of a more godlike substance, they are able easily to assume any form. So they became precious stones, and goodly pearl, and the most beauteous purple, and choice gold, and all matter that is held in most esteem. And they fell into the hands of some, and into the bosoms of others, and suffered themselves to be stolen by them. They also changed themselves into beasts and reptiles, and fishes and birds, and into whatsoever they pleased. These things also the poets among yourselves, by reason of fearlessness, sing, as they befell, attributing to one the many and diverse doings of all.

"But when, having assumed these forms, they convicted as covetous those who stole them, and changed themselves into the nature of men, in order that, living holily, and showing the possibility of so living, they might subject the ungrateful to punishment, yet having become in all respects men, they also partook of human lust, and being brought under its subjection they fell into cohabitation with women; and being involved with them, and sunk in defilement and altogether emptied of their first power, were unable to turn back to the first purity of their proper nature, their members turned away from their fiery substance :* for the fire itself, being extinguished by the weight of lust, [and changed] into flesh, they trode the impious path downward. For they themselves, being fettered with the bonds of flesh, were constrained and strongly bound; wherefore they have no more been able to ascend into the heavens.
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they
are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.
Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.

Clementine, not scripture. And you are twisting what Paul wrote and shifting it from current events to past back to current wne it is all currently applicable.
 
@JohnDeVitoOfOld

The fallen spirits are the “invisible things” from which the material world was made, “being understood” by the apostles and prophets of God. It is entirely consistent with Nazarene speculative theology regarding cosmogenesis and theogony. You dont perceive it because your church has misled you.


(NKJ) For since the creation of the world His invisible things are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, (Romans 1:20)​

So the "fallen spirits" teach us about God's power. Got it.
 
There is so much you dont know because christians like you live in a bubble talking only to yourselves, telling each other what you want to hear, while the world scholars, archaeologists, and scientists have gained knowledge of our world and recovered the original interpretations of scripture which the roman church opposed and prevented anyone from hearing especially by the fourth century. You are a dinosaur my friend and do not realize your extinction is nigh.
Just keep repeating that mantra. I believe God says what He means and means what He says. The Bible is a unified whole. Jesus gave his stamp of approval to the Law and the Prophets as God's Word. That continued with the apostles. Alleged recovered original interpretations of scripture take a backseat to what Jesus and the apostles have already said. And guess what? Practicing homosexuality with men having sex with men and women with women has not been condoned either for the Jewish or the Christians lifestyle.

You either believe what God has said or you don't. There is ample evidence to believe. You make your own choice.
 
In regards to ἄνθρωπος (anthrōpos) and usage in Romans 1:18, no recognized Greek scholar or word study of this verse define "anthopos" as relating to fallen angels or unseen things. It is accurately defined as human (male or female) in context of Romans Chapter 1. Clementine's writings (Gnostic) are not scripture and as such, are not weighed to scripture and is of no authority concerning sound Biblical exegesis.

ἄνθρωπος (anthrōpos): gen. mass., fem, noun. Man, a generic name in distinction from gods and the animals. In the NT, used to make the distinction between sinful man, whose conduct, way, or nature is opposed to God. (Dr. Zodhiates)

G444 ἄνθρωπος (anthrōpos)

Thayer Definition:

1) a human being, whether male or female

1a) generically, to include all human individuals

1b) to distinguish man from beings of a different order

1b1) of animals and plants

1b2) of from God and Christ

1b3) of the angels
 
In regards to ἄνθρωπος (anthrōpos) and usage in Romans 1:18, no recognized Greek scholar or word study of this verse define "anthopos" as relating to fallen angels or unseen things. It is accurately defined as human (male or female) in context of Romans Chapter 1. Clementine's writings (Gnostic) are not scripture and as such, are not weighed to scripture and is of no authority concerning sound Biblical exegesis.

ἄνθρωπος (anthrōpos): gen. mass., fem, noun. Man, a generic name in distinction from gods and the animals. In the NT, used to make the distinction between sinful man, whose conduct, way, or nature is opposed to God. (Dr. Zodhiates)

G444 ἄνθρωπος (anthrōpos)

Thayer Definition:

1) a human being, whether male or female

1a) generically, to include all human individuals

1b) to distinguish man from beings of a different order

1b1) of animals and plants

1b2) of from God and Christ

1b3) of the angels
The wrath of God is directed at the flesh of anthropos because the flesh or matter was made from the “invisible” things, ie., fallen spirits. See Romans 1:20. The subject of the passage is the fallen spirits who became matter.

For the third time, this is entirely consistent with the speculative theology regarding cosmogony and theogony in hellenistic times, —during Paul’s time. The catholic church subsequently suppressed this information two thousand years ago but now it has been recovered through modern archeology, comparative theology, critical scholarship.

The clementine homilies serve as one of many independent sources for the idea. Ignore it if you want.

All of you opposed to this alternative exposition of Paul’s explanation have been indoctrinated by orthodoxy and live in a bubble of your own making. Biblical scholarship by actual scholars know this stuff. Christian apologists do not because they choose not to know it.
 
So the "fallen spirits" teach us about God's power. Got it.
Science has proven that an ancient source of energy from before the big bang energizes all planets and life in our cosmos. There is actually a secular Netflix series that demonstrates it. So yeah, the power of God is demonstrated in the visible things having been made from invisible things, in this case, fallen spirits or angels, which formally inhabited a world of light or pure energy. Science meet speculative theology of the Nazarenes. Science is just now catching up with the word of an apostle.
 
The wrath of God is directed at the flesh of anthropos because the flesh or matter was made from the “invisible” things, ie., fallen spirits. See Romans 1:20. The subject of the passage is the fallen spirits who became matter.

For the third time, this is entirely consistent with the speculative theology regarding cosmogony and theogony in hellenistic times, —during Paul’s time. The catholic church subsequently suppressed this information two thousand years ago but now it has been recovered through modern archeology, comparative theology, critical scholarship.

The clementine homilies serve as one of many independent sources for the idea. Ignore it if you want.

All of you opposed to this alternative exposition of Paul’s explanation have been indoctrinated by orthodoxy and live in a bubble of your own making. Biblical scholarship by actual scholars know this stuff. Christian apologists do not because they choose not to know it.
Nothing quite like "speculative theology" is there?
 
Nothing quite like "speculative theology" is there?
Paul is referring to cosmogenesis at Romans 1:20 using the speculative theology of the Nazarenes.

For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made… (Romans 1:20)​
 
Paul is referring to cosmogenesis at Romans 1:20 using the speculative theology of the Nazarenes.

For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made… (Romans 1:20)​
You certainly can't read for context can you? You keep beating that dead horse. The OT and NT are consistent-- homosexual relations are not allowed and considered an abomination. God's word is clear. Christians believe it. You reject it. Have a nice life. The afterlife won't be so great.
 
You certainly can't read for context can you? You keep beating that dead horse. The OT and NT are consistent-- homosexual relations are not allowed and considered an abomination. God's word is clear. Christians believe it. You reject it. Have a nice life. The afterlife won't be so great.
I am sorry you feel that way. But it is not me that you should be angry with for I am only the messenger. Be angry at those who confounded the scriptures a long time ago.
 
@organgrinder

E.S. Drower wrote of the Nasaraean scriptures the following,
“The wealth of symbolic phrases, of symbolic words, of symbolic acts of personification, and the use of the ‘ear that hears and the eyes that see’ make Nasirutha, even in its most extravagant expressions, the poetry of religion.” (Drower, “The Secret Adam”, pg 87)​
And one of those metaphors used as a symbolic act for heavenly things, eg., “invisible” spirits, is human sexuality. Your inability to appreciate the metaphor pertaining to the heavenly marriage (Ephesians 5:31) has led you into error, into prejudice, and into an unjustified bias. Where Paul is using a common, widely known metaphor of human sexuality, among Nasaraeans pertaining to cosmogony, you take as a literal thing.

The metaphor explained.
The human male seed is depositied into, inside, within the human female womb to create life
JUST AS,
the moral intellect, (aka, “christ” anointing, holy spirit, “spirit of Yeshua”) is depositied into the soul/body to form a “new creation”, begat a child of God, to make one “born-again”

Therefore, in Paul’s mind, in historical context, in the poetry of Nasaraean religion, rebel spirits in heaven abandoned their male nature, descended to create a material world, and pursued the pleasure of body alone. They pursued female to female nature alone leaving the male nature alone with the male. IOW, they broke the syzygy, the harmony, the unity of the heavenly marriage. Hence the chains of matter bind them in human and animal flesh, in plants and trees, in rocks and soil, …into all matter of the cosmos! Consequently, we experience suffering and death in our world.

It is against matter that God’s wrath is directed, against all human flesh, for matter is separated from the Most High God by rebellious spirits or angels. This <<< is the historical context that you lack. I perceive it because I read a lot of history, archaeology, biblical scholarship that you will never read. Which is why I say you and your colleagues live in a bubble, because you have closed your minds to historical truth. The darkness descended upon the minds of men when the catholic church came to power and suppressed the historical truth. In some ways, you are one of its victims.

Anyways, I wish you the best. Truly.

 
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