Demons are not fallen angels, but disembodied people.

squirrelyguy

Active member
The Biblical case for the idea that demons, aka evil spirits, cannot be fallen angels but are far more likely to be disembodied people, is a simple matter of deduction.

We know that what the Bible calls a "spirit" is non-corporeal, i.e. it does not have a form that can be touched physically by us. Jesus tells His disciples after His resurrection in Luke 24:39 to "Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have."

Angels, however, are corporeal; they do have a physical form. We see in Scripture that angels can be touched, speak with audible voices, disguise themselves as humans, can be wrestled with, and even eat our food.

It would follow then that what the Bible refers to as evil spirits (used synonymously with demons) cannot merely be fallen angels, but are far more likely to be disembodied people who have somehow remained stuck on earth, and who desperately seek to inhabit living bodies again.

There is another point to be made on this: in Luke 10:19, Christ seems to explicitly distinguish between fallen angels and demons. The text says "Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you." The interpretation of "serpents" as devils, or fallen angels, would seem natural enough to us since Satan himself is explicitly characterized as a serpent in Scripture.

But as for the meaning of "scorpions", the best clue comes from an extrabiblical papyrus fragment containing a non-canonical story of Jesus. In Oxyrhynchus 840, Jesus gets into an argument with a Pharisee over the fact that He and His disciples did not wash themselves before entering the temple; Jesus points out that the Pharisee himself only washed in unclean water before entering, saying "And when you washed yourself, you scrubbed the outer layer of skin, the layer of skin that prostitutes and flute-girls anoint and wash and scrub when they put on make up to become the desire of the men. But inside they are filled with scorpions and all unrighteousness." Here, the word "scorpions" is undoubtedly used as a metaphor for demons.
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
The Biblical case for the idea that demons, aka evil spirits, cannot be fallen angels but are far more likely to be disembodied people, is a simple matter of deduction.

We know that what the Bible calls a "spirit" is non-corporeal, i.e. it does not have a form that can be touched physically by us. Jesus tells His disciples after His resurrection in Luke 24:39 to "Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have."

Angels, however, are corporeal; they do have a physical form. We see in Scripture that angels can be touched, speak with audible voices, disguise themselves as humans, can be wrestled with, and even eat our food.

It would follow then that what the Bible refers to as evil spirits (used synonymously with demons) cannot merely be fallen angels, but are far more likely to be disembodied people who have somehow remained stuck on earth, and who desperately seek to inhabit living bodies again.

There is another point to be made on this: in Luke 10:19, Christ seems to explicitly distinguish between fallen angels and demons. The text says "Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you." The interpretation of "serpents" as devils, or fallen angels, would seem natural enough to us since Satan himself is explicitly characterized as a serpent in Scripture.

But as for the meaning of "scorpions", the best clue comes from an extrabiblical papyrus fragment containing a non-canonical story of Jesus. In Oxyrhynchus 840, Jesus gets into an argument with a Pharisee over the fact that He and His disciples did not wash themselves before entering the temple; Jesus points out that the Pharisee himself only washed in unclean water before entering, saying "And when you washed yourself, you scrubbed the outer layer of skin, the layer of skin that prostitutes and flute-girls anoint and wash and scrub when they put on make up to become the desire of the men. But inside they are filled with scorpions and all unrighteousness." Here, the word "scorpions" is undoubtedly used as a metaphor for demons.
This is why we must test these spirits to see which are of God. How do we know if they are of God or not? Simple either you have from God that what Jesus had from Him and your identity is the same as Jesus identity was with Him, which simply is Love for God is Love, He is a Spirit and that Spirit is Love. A very simple enlightenment that man in his doctrines for beliefs make so complicated. .
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
The Biblical case for the idea that demons, aka evil spirits, cannot be fallen angels but are far more likely to be disembodied people, is a simple matter of deduction.

Humans are not spirits. They have a spirit but they are not spirits. Humans are mortals; spirits are not.

We know that what the Bible calls a "spirit" is non-corporeal, i.e. it does not have a form that can be touched physically by us. Jesus tells His disciples after His resurrection in Luke 24:39 to "Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have."

Angels, however, are corporeal; they do have a physical form. We see in Scripture that angels can be touched, speak with audible voices, disguise themselves as humans, can be wrestled with, and even eat our food.

It would follow then that what the Bible refers to as evil spirits (used synonymously with demons) cannot merely be fallen angels, but are far more likely to be disembodied people who have somehow remained stuck on earth, and who desperately seek to inhabit living bodies again.

There is another point to be made on this: in Luke 10:19, Christ seems to explicitly distinguish between fallen angels and demons. The text says "Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you." The interpretation of "serpents" as devils, or fallen angels, would seem natural enough to us since Satan himself is explicitly characterized as a serpent in Scripture.

But as for the meaning of "scorpions", the best clue comes from an extrabiblical papyrus fragment containing a non-canonical story of Jesus. In Oxyrhynchus 840, Jesus gets into an argument with a Pharisee over the fact that He and His disciples did not wash themselves before entering the temple; Jesus points out that the Pharisee himself only washed in unclean water before entering, saying "And when you washed yourself, you scrubbed the outer layer of skin, the layer of skin that prostitutes and flute-girls anoint and wash and scrub when they put on make up to become the desire of the men. But inside they are filled with scorpions and all unrighteousness." Here, the word "scorpions" is undoubtedly used as a metaphor for demons.
 

e v e

Super Member
The Biblical case for the idea that demons, aka evil spirits, cannot be fallen angels but are far more likely to be disembodied people, is a simple matter of deduction.

We know that what the Bible calls a "spirit" is non-corporeal, i.e. it does not have a form that can be touched physically by us. Jesus tells His disciples after His resurrection in Luke 24:39 to "Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have."

Angels, however, are corporeal; they do have a physical form. We see in Scripture that angels can be touched, speak with audible voices, disguise themselves as humans, can be wrestled with, and even eat our food.

It would follow then that what the Bible refers to as evil spirits (used synonymously with demons) cannot merely be fallen angels, but are far more likely to be disembodied people who have somehow remained stuck on earth, and who desperately seek to inhabit living bodies again.

There is another point to be made on this: in Luke 10:19, Christ seems to explicitly distinguish between fallen angels and demons. The text says "Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you." The interpretation of "serpents" as devils, or fallen angels, would seem natural enough to us since Satan himself is explicitly characterized as a serpent in Scripture.

But as for the meaning of "scorpions", the best clue comes from an extrabiblical papyrus fragment containing a non-canonical story of Jesus. In Oxyrhynchus 840, Jesus gets into an argument with a Pharisee over the fact that He and His disciples did not wash themselves before entering the temple; Jesus points out that the Pharisee himself only washed in unclean water before entering, saying "And when you washed yourself, you scrubbed the outer layer of skin, the layer of skin that prostitutes and flute-girls anoint and wash and scrub when they put on make up to become the desire of the men. But inside they are filled with scorpions and all unrighteousness." Here, the word "scorpions" is undoubtedly used as a metaphor for demons.
interesting.

Consider if the many who have died (many billions) and rejected God... will be, are the same as the locusts of rev returning here soon... spirits who are not His.

And perhaps not on this earth wandering...? only appearing that way, since to us, being glued to mortal bodies, the other world is firmly behind a veil.
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
interesting.

Consider if the many who have died (many billions) and rejected God... will be, are the same as the locusts of rev returning here soon... spirits who are not His.

And perhaps not on this earth wandering...? only appearing that way, since to us, being glued to mortal bodies, the other world is firmly behind a veil.
Im in this world but not of it, I am of Gods kingdom.
 

GeneZ

Well-known member
The Biblical case for the idea that demons, aka evil spirits, cannot be fallen angels but are far more likely to be disembodied people, is a simple matter of deduction.

We know that what the Bible calls a "spirit" is non-corporeal, i.e. it does not have a form that can be touched physically by us. Jesus tells His disciples after His resurrection in Luke 24:39 to "Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have."

Angels, however, are corporeal; they do have a physical form. We see in Scripture that angels can be touched, speak with audible voices, disguise themselves as humans, can be wrestled with, and even eat our food.

It would follow then that what the Bible refers to as evil spirits (used synonymously with demons) cannot merely be fallen angels, but are far more likely to be disembodied people who have somehow remained stuck on earth, and who desperately seek to inhabit living bodies again.

There is another point to be made on this: in Luke 10:19, Christ seems to explicitly distinguish between fallen angels and demons. The text says "Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you." The interpretation of "serpents" as devils, or fallen angels, would seem natural enough to us since Satan himself is explicitly characterized as a serpent in Scripture.

But as for the meaning of "scorpions", the best clue comes from an extrabiblical papyrus fragment containing a non-canonical story of Jesus. In Oxyrhynchus 840, Jesus gets into an argument with a Pharisee over the fact that He and His disciples did not wash themselves before entering the temple; Jesus points out that the Pharisee himself only washed in unclean water before entering, saying "And when you washed yourself, you scrubbed the outer layer of skin, the layer of skin that prostitutes and flute-girls anoint and wash and scrub when they put on make up to become the desire of the men. But inside they are filled with scorpions and all unrighteousness." Here, the word "scorpions" is undoubtedly used as a metaphor for demons.
Man died spiritually when Adam fell. We remain physically alive with a body and soul. Its our human spirits that now go missing until we are born again. Unregenerate man can not understand the things of God.

Now, angels were not created soul beings. They are spirit in their essence instead of a soul.

So, when the angels that rebelled fell? They could not die spiritually.

For they are by nature are spiritual. They remain able to understand the things of God, though they be fallen. In their case? Those angels who fell? They dies a physical death. They were denied and lost the right to having a body! They are evil spirits for that reason, always craving to have a body.

There is more to it. But, that is just for an intro.
 

John t

Super Member
But as for the meaning of "scorpions", the best clue comes from an extrabiblical papyrus fragment containing a non-canonical story of Jesus.
This above in bold red is primary evidence that your theory does not hold water. In other words, it is on par with Joseph Smith's Book of Humbug, er, Mormon
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
Man died spiritually when Adam fell. We remain physically alive with a body and soul. Its our human spirits that now go missing until we are born again. Unregenerate man can not understand the things of God.

Now, angels were not created soul beings. They are spirit in their essence instead of a soul.

So, when the angels that rebelled fell? They could not die spiritually.

For they are by nature are spiritual. They remain able to understand the things of God, though they be fallen. In their case? Those angels who fell? They dies a physical death. They were denied and lost the right to having a body! They are evil spirits for that reason, always craving to have a body.

There is more to it. But, that is just for an intro.
Man is born Spiritually when God comes to you by His Spirit as He did in Adam, Abraham, Moses Jesus in Matt 3:16, 120 in an upper room where we become like Him to know this difference.
 

imJRR

Well-known member
??

last sentence: "...inside they are filled with scorpions and all unrighteousness." Here, the word "scorpions" is undoubtedly used as a metaphor for demons.

"Undoubtedly"? Okay, well, I do doubt that, and will suggest what I believe may work better:
I would submit that - since it's commonly known that scorpions are poisonous, it is easier to say that prostitutes are 'poisonous' - in terms of the consequences one will experience after being with her.

Example: "Boy, you stay away from that woman. She's no good and she will poison your life."
 

GeneZ

Well-known member
The Biblical case for the idea that demons, aka evil spirits, cannot be fallen angels but are far more likely to be disembodied people, is a simple matter of deduction.
"People" are souls. Not "spirits."

Angels are "spirits."


“Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?” Hebrews 1:14​
.
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
"People" are souls. Not "spirits."

Angels are "spirits."


“Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?” Hebrews 1:14​
.
Soul is Spirit and the disposition of. It is who we are not what we are.
 

squirrelyguy

Active member
"People" are souls. Not "spirits."

Angels are "spirits."


“Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?” Hebrews 1:14​
.
Swing and a miss. Hebrews 1:7 says:

And of the angels He says:
"Who makes His angels spirits
And His ministers a flame of fire.”


The writer of Hebrews is quoting the OT here to suggest that God's "angels" are spirits, and His "ministers" are flames of fire. In other words, he's using angels and ministers as metaphors for spirits and flames of fire. The nature of metaphors is that they bear a resemblance to something without being literally equivalent. Thus in v. 14, he's saying that all angels are ministering spirits in the same metaphorical sense...spirits are not literal angels any more than flames or fire are literal ministers.

Furthermore, see 1 Thess. 5:23 which says "may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." Humans are tripartite beings, which means we are composed of body, soul, and spirit. Also, Hebrews 4:12 says "For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." There is a division between the soul and spirit, and humans have both.
 

GeneZ

Well-known member
Swing and a miss. Hebrews 1:7 says:

And of the angels He says:
"Who makes His angels spirits
And His ministers a flame of fire.”


The writer of Hebrews is quoting the OT here to suggest that God's "angels" are spirits, and His "ministers" are flames of fire. In other words, he's using angels and ministers as metaphors for spirits and flames of fire. The nature of metaphors is that they bear a resemblance to something without being literally equivalent. Thus in v. 14, he's saying that all angels are ministering spirits in the same metaphorical sense...spirits are not literal angels any more than flames or fire are literal ministers.

Furthermore, see 1 Thess. 5:23 which says "may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." Humans are tripartite beings, which means we are composed of body, soul, and spirit. Also, Hebrews 4:12 says "For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." There is a division between the soul and spirit, and humans have both.
There is no "suggesting going on" that they are spirits... They are spirits.

You are a soul. Also invisible and immaterial like an angel's spirit. Both needing a body to be seen.


"may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless
at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." 1 Thess. 5:23

That is the human spirit that Jesus was teaching Nicodemus about when he said...


Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.
You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ John 3:6-7


That refers to the believer's 'human spirit' that one receives at the point of being born again. Regeneration. "Made spiritually alive."

Which proves once again that 'soul' and 'spirit' are two different immaterial entities. 1 Thes 5:23 differentiated between the two - soul, and spirit as being different in immaterial essence.


Angels are spirits.

Jesus cast out 'evil spirits.' If he was casting out 'souls?' Those possessed people would be dropping dead leaving a lifeless carcass on the ground. For its the soul that animates the human body.

👨‍✈️

next.....
 

squirrelyguy

Active member
There is no "suggesting going on" that they are spirits... They are spirits.

You are a soul. Also invisible and immaterial like an angel's spirit. Both needing a body to be seen.


"may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless
at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." 1 Thess. 5:23

That is the human spirit that Jesus was teaching Nicodemus about when he said...


Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.
You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ John 3:6-7


That refers to the believer's 'human spirit' that one receives at the point of being born again. Regeneration. "Made spiritually alive."

Which proves once again that 'soul' and 'spirit' are two different immaterial entities. 1 Thes 5:23 differentiated between the two - soul, and spirit as being different in immaterial essence.


Angels are spirits.

Jesus cast out 'evil spirits.' If he was casting out 'souls?' Those possessed people would be dropping dead leaving a lifeless carcass on the ground. For its the soul that animates the human body.

👨‍✈️

next.....
Hebrews 12:22-23

"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect."

The deceased saints in heaven are called spirits.
 

John t

Super Member
The deceased saints in heaven are called spirits.

Apparently, you may be unaware of the meaning of the word, "context". This is Axiom #1 of apologetics: EVERY verse ripped from its context is a pretext, without exception.

The passage describes a FUTURE kingdom to come, namely that of the reign of Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 12: 18 For you have not come to what may be touched, a blazing fire and darkness and gloom and a tempest​
19 and the sound of a trumpet and a voice whose words made the hearers beg that no further messages be spoken to them.​
20 For they could not endure the order that was given, “If even a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned.”​
21 Indeed, so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, “I tremble with fear.”​
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering,
23 and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,​
24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.​
.
What I made bold orange has no connection to what you are attempting to establish when the entire context is read.
 

GeneZ

Well-known member
Hebrews 12:22-23

"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect."

The deceased saints in heaven are called spirits.
They are not called spirits. They have been given a human spirit to possess as I had already shown you. The human spirit is something they possess, not what they are -souls.

The human spirit is where the Holy Spirit stores and utilizes Bible truth for us to think with. As seen in Romans 8:16 -
"The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children."

Note.. it does not say.
"The Spirit himself testifies with our soul that we are God's children."

It says... testifies with "our spirit." Not, our soul.

Its the human spirit that the Holy Spirit begot fore us when we became born again. Thus making us to become body, soul, and spirit.

The unbeliever consists only of body and soul. He is devoid of a human spirit. = spiritually dead.


grace and peace.......
 

squirrelyguy

Active member
They are not called spirits. They have been given a human spirit to possess as I had already shown you. The human spirit is something they possess, not what they are -souls.

The human spirit is where the Holy Spirit stores and utilizes Bible truth for us to think with. As seen in Romans 8:16 -
"The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children."

Note.. it does not say.
"The Spirit himself testifies with our soul that we are God's children."

It says... testifies with "our spirit." Not, our soul.

Its the human spirit that the Holy Spirit begot fore us when we became born again. Thus making us to become body, soul, and spirit.

The unbeliever consists only of body and soul. He is devoid of a human spirit. = spiritually dead.


grace and peace.......
The word "spirit" in the Bible is nothing more than air with intelligence. The body without the spirit is dead (James 2:26). Matthew 27:50 says "And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit", which is to say, He physically died, not that He became spiritually dead.
 
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