Demons are not fallen angels, but disembodied people.

[Bocco]

I used to believe that Demons are simply fallen angels, but I have a problem with two texts:

Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

The angels that fell are either in Hell and chained up or they are not. If they are, they can't be running around possessing people.

Actually the Bible never actually tells us the origin of Demons as far as I know.

 

[e v e 21]

The Biblical case for the idea that demons, aka evil spirits, cannot be fallen angels but are far more likely to be disembodied people, is a simple matter of deduction.

We know that what the Bible calls a "spirit" is non-corporeal, i.e. it does not have a form that can be touched physically by us. Jesus tells His disciples after His resurrection in Luke 24:39 to "Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have."

Angels, however, are corporeal; they do have a physical form. We see in Scripture that angels can be touched, speak with audible voices, disguise themselves as humans, can be wrestled with, and even eat our food.

It would follow then that what the Bible refers to as evil spirits (used synonymously with demons) cannot merely be fallen angels, but are far more likely to be disembodied people who have somehow remained stuck on earth, and who desperately seek to inhabit living bodies again.

There is another point to be made on this: in Luke 10:19, Christ seems to explicitly distinguish between fallen angels and demons. The text says "Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you." The interpretation of "serpents" as devils, or fallen angels, would seem natural enough to us since Satan himself is explicitly characterized as a serpent in Scripture.

But as for the meaning of "scorpions", the best clue comes from an extrabiblical papyrus fragment containing a non-canonical story of Jesus. In Oxyrhynchus 840, Jesus gets into an argument with a Pharisee over the fact that He and His disciples did not wash themselves before entering the temple; Jesus points out that the Pharisee himself only washed in unclean water before entering, saying "And when you washed yourself, you scrubbed the outer layer of skin, the layer of skin that prostitutes and flute-girls anoint and wash and scrub when they put on make up to become the desire of the men. But inside they are filled with scorpions and all unrighteousness." Here, the word "scorpions" is undoubtedly used as a metaphor for demons.

yes… and those millions are the locusts of rev… coming to earth during tribulation…

 

[squirrelyguy]

I used to believe that Demons are simply fallen angels, but I have a problem with two texts:

Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

The angels that fell are either in Hell and chained up or they are not. If they are, they can't be running around possessing people.

Actually the Bible never actually tells us the origin of Demons as far as I know.

That's actually a very good observation.

 

[Dizerner]

NOooo, this is completely wrong.

Souls are not allowed to come back and act like demons, lol.

Even some demons have apparently violated their terms and are being "tormented before the time," like they were afraid of happening.

 

[e v e 21]

The ‘souls’ belonging to satan, of the satanic realm, choosing satan, are demons.

During end times they are the locusts in rev.

 

[Dizerner]

The ‘souls’ belonging to satan, of the satanic realm, choosing satan, are demons.

During end times they are the locusts in rev.

Demons and angels have souls and are allowed to do spiritual warfare.

Human souls are kept in paradise or sheol until judgment.

 

[e v e 21]

Demons and angels have souls and are allowed to do spiritual warfare.

Human souls are kept in paradise or sheol until judgment.

you think that because :

you don’t see there are two realms and that some humans are not of God…

and that He did not create this body and earth.

 

[e v e 21]

there is a spiritual war since before eden fell.

end times is its culmination.

 

[Dizerner]

you think that because :

you don’t see there are two realms and that some humans are not of God…

and that He did not create this body and earth.

God created everything.

It's appointed unto man once to die and AFTER THIS THE JUDGMENT. No floating around allowed.

We ruined God's creation, we did it, not God.

I never denied the war started before Eden!!!

Or that some humans refuse God!!!

 

[e v e 21]

God created everything.

yes and gave to man dominion (which was stolen after the fall by adams submission to satan)… the lucifer chapter is about adam..

and by which actions by adam the current corruption happened…including this current world starting…

It's appointed unto man once to die and AFTER THIS THE JUDGMENT. No floating around allowed.

i never mentioned floating. it’s much worse than that.

We ruined God's creation, we did it, not God.

reread my previous posts.

I never denied the war started before Eden!!!

Or that some humans refuse God!!!

well

 

[Gary Mac]

Demons and angels have souls and are allowed to do spiritual warfare.

Human souls are kept in paradise or sheol until judgment.

Judgment is today and you know very well if you are like the Father of it as Jesus was like Him or not as God commands of us if we are to be of Him and in His same image.

 

[Gary Mac]

there is a spiritual war since before eden fell.

end times is its culmination.

You are looking for the sensational instead of living the life of the living God this day as religious folk dont live it.

 

[Gary Mac]

you think that because :

you don’t see there are two realms and that some humans are not of God…

and that He did not create this body and earth.

And everyone knows if they have His same Spirit, mind, and walk as He walks in it or not.

 

[Gary Mac]

yes and gave to man dominion (which was stolen after the fall by adams submission to satan)… the lucifer chapter is about adam..

He gives us dominion over all these spirits not stolen from us but given us by His Spirit. He opens up all of His heaven in us not take it away LOL.

and by which actions by adam the current corruption happened…including this current world starting…

It is by everyones actions if they eat of His knowledge and become like Him or not, and everyone knows if that have ate of Him to become like Him and in His same image to have His same mind. Jesus ate of it Matt 3:16, that is when he became like God to know this difference as Adam became like Him, Gen 3:22,

You act as if becoming like the God of heaven is a bad deal LOL. He demands that of us if we are to be in His kingdom. Where is His kingdom? Luke 17:20-21.

i never mentioned floating. it’s much worse than that.



reread my previous posts.



well

 

[shnarkle]

I used to believe that Demons are simply fallen angels, but I have a problem with two texts:

Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

The angels that fell are either in Hell and chained up or they are not. If they are, they can't be running around possessing people.

The first thing to note is that these are not all fallen angels, but a certain group "during the days of Noah", and they were not sent to hell (i.e. Greek "Hades"), but to "Tartarus". We see this similarly depicted in the Greek mythologies as the Titans who rebelled against Zeus. Furthermore, the term itself in the Greek e.g. δαίμων daimōn

From etymology online:

demon (n.)​

c. 1200, "an evil spirit, malignant supernatural being, an incubus, a devil," from Latin daemon "spirit," from Greek daimōn "deity, divine power; lesser god; guiding spirit, tutelary deity" (sometimes including souls of the dead); "one's genius, lot, or fortune;" from PIE *dai-mon- "divider, provider" (of fortunes or destinies), from root *da- "to divide."

From Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words:

Demon, Demoniac:

not a diminutive of daimon, No. 1, but the neuter of the adjective daimonios, pertaining to a demon, is also mistranslated "devil," "devils." In Act 17:18, it denotes an inferior pagan deity. "Demons" are the spiritual agents acting in all idolatry. The idol itself is nothing, but every idol has a "demon" associated with it who induces idolatry, with its worship and sacrifices, 1Cr 10:20, 21; Rev 9:20; cp. Deu 32:17; Isa 13:21; 34:14; 65:3, 11. They disseminate errors among men, and seek to seduce believers, 1Ti 4:1. As seducing spirits they deceive men into the supposition that through mediums (those who have "familiar spirits," Lev 20:6, 27, e.g.) they can converse with deceased human beings. Hence the destructive deception of Spiritism, forbidden in Scripture, Lev 19:31; Deu 18:11; Isa 8:19. "Demons" tremble before God, Jam 2:19; they recognized Christ as Lord and as their future Judge, Mat 8:29; Luk 4:41. Christ cast them out of human beings by His own power. His disciples did so in His Name, and by exercising faith, e.g., Mat 17:20.

Acting under Satan (cp. Rev 16:13, 14), "demons" are permitted to afflict with bodily disease, Luk 13:16. Being unclean they tempt human beings with unclean thoughts, Mat 10:1; Mar 5:2; 7:25; Luk 8:27-29; Rev 16:13; 18:2, e.g. They differ in degrees of wickedness, Mat 12:45. They will instigate the rulers of the nations at the end of this age to make war against God and His Christ, Rev 16:14.

Demon, Demoniac - Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words

Demon, Demoniac :A-1: a demon, signified, among pagan Greeks, an inferior deity, whether good or bad. In the NT it denotes an evil spirit. It is used in Mat

www.blueletterbible.org

One other reference which I am still looking for points out that it refers to being "sent from above", and doesn't seem to carry the negative baggage it accrued over time.

Actually the Bible never actually tells us the origin of Demons as far as I know.

 

[En Hakkore]

NOooo, this is completely wrong.

Souls are not allowed to come back and act like demons, lol.

Even some demons have apparently violated their terms and are being "tormented before the time," like they were afraid of happening.

Hold on there with the lols... this dismissal is premature. At times one must look outside the particular books that happened to have been canonized in the Bible to understand what is being talked about... and such is the case here. Let's review the two texts cited in the post to which you responded:

For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of deepest darkness to be kept until the judgment... (2 Pet 2:4)

And the angels who did not keep their own position, but left their proper dwelling, [the Lord] has kept in eternal chains in deepest darkness for the judgment of the great day. (Jude 1:6)

Both these texts allude to extra-biblical interpretation of Gen 6:1-4 found in 1 Enoch, Jubilees and a number of previously-unknown texts found at Qumran. As the first is the most likely source for Jude (and 2 Peter is a reworked expansion of Jude), I will focus on that. Here are the pertinent points of its version of the enigmatic Genesis passage:

In those days, when the children of man had multiplied, it happened that there were born unto them handsome and beautiful daughters. And the angels, the children of heaven, saw them and desired them; and they said to one another, "Come, let us choose wives for ourselves from among the daughters of man and beget us children." (1 Enoch 6:1-2)

And they took wives unto themselves, and everyone (respectively) chose one woman for himself, and they began to go unto them... And the women became pregnant and gave birth to great giants whose heights were three hundred cubits. These (giants) consumed the produce of all the people until the people detested feeding them. So the giants turned against (the people) in order to eat them. (1 Enoch 7:1a, 2-4)

These are the angels to whom the authors of 2 Peter and Jude refer... their sin (2 Peter) involved the forsaking of their position and proper dwelling (Jude) by coming to earth and impregnating women who gave birth to hybrid offspring who were gigantic in stature. In 1 Enoch, the leader of these fallen angels is Semyaza (6:3, 7):

And to Michael God said, "Make known to Semyaza and the others who are with him, who fornicated with the women, that they will die together with them in all their defilement. And when they and all their children have battled with each other, and when they have seen the destruction of their beloved ones, bind them for seventy generations underneath the rock of the ground until the day of their judgment and of their consummation, until the eternal judgment is concluded." (1 Enoch 10:11-12)

While these fallen angels are confined, their hybrid offspring have a different fate. The angel Gabriel is tasked with pitting them against each other so they destroy each other (1 Enoch 10:9), after which the reader learns in one of Enoch's visions;

But now the giants who are born from the (union of) the spirits and the flesh shall be called evil spirits upon the earth. Evil spirits have come out of their bodies. Because from the day that they were created from the holy ones they became the Watchers; their first origin is the spiritual foundation. They will become evil upon the earth and shall be called evil spirits. (1 Enoch 15:8-9)

The postmortem release of these evil spirits from the slain giant hybrids serves as the background for the New Testament demons:

From the days of the slaughter and destruction, and the death of the giants and the spiritual beings of the spirits, and the flesh, from which they have proceeded forth, which will corrupt without incurring judgment, they will corrupt until the day of the great conclusion, until the great age is consummated, until everything is concluded (upon) the Watchers and the wicked ones. (1 Enoch 16:1)

As disembodied spirits they have the ability to invade human beings and wreak havoc, which they are free to do until the end of the age... Jesus' power over the demons and his reputed exorcisms signal that the end is drawing near --- that they will not face judgment until the consummation of the age is assumed in the demons' question to Jesus if he has come to "torment [them] before the time" (Matt 8:29).

If you can get your hands on one or more of them, I would recommend the following resources:

The Watchers in Jewish and Christian Traditions, edited by Angela Kim Harkins, Kelly Coblentz Bautch and John Endres (Fortress Press, 2014)
Archie Wright, The Origin of Evil Spirits: The Reception of Genesis 6:1-4 in Early Jewish Literature (Fortress Press, 2015)
Loren Stuckenbruck, The Myth of Rebellious Angels: Studies in Second Temple Judaism and New Testament Texts (Eerdmans, 2017)

Kind regards,
Jonathan

 

[Bocco]

Do angels have sex organs? Also, have any of you read any books by Michael S. Heiser.
Supernatural: What the Bible Teaches About the Unseen World - and Why It Matters
and
The Unseen Realm: Recovering the Supernatural Worldview of the Bible

The "unseen Realm" is the bigger and more detailed book, and "Supernatural" is more of a condensation of it.

They were fascinating to read, but not sure I believe the whole premise and that is "angels have penises, and can produce human sperm capable of impregnating human women.

Jesus said the Angels do not marry. If they do not marry, why would they have sex organs? Is there fornication in Heaven?

One person told me that "well, when they take on the form of a human they have everything a human has."

But I don't buy that. They can appear human, but that doesn't mean they have hearts, lungs, kidney's, not to mention prostates, testicles and the ability to produce human sperm. They are simply able to appear as a human.

Whatcha think?

 

[En Hakkore]

have any of you read any books by Michael S. Heiser.
Supernatural: What the Bible Teaches About the Unseen World - and Why It Matters
and
The Unseen Realm: Recovering the Supernatural Worldview of the Bible

The "unseen Realm" is the bigger and more detailed book, and "Supernatural" is more of a condensation of it.

I haven't read either of them, though my knowledge of this subject will not be found lacking.

not sure I believe the whole premise and that is "angels have penises, and can produce human sperm capable of impregnating human women.

Jesus said the Angels do not marry. If they do not marry, why would they have sex organs? Is there fornication in Heaven?

One person told me that "well, when they take on the form of a human they have everything a human has."

But I don't buy that. They can appear human, but that doesn't mean they have hearts, lungs, kidney's, not to mention prostates, testicles and the ability to produce human sperm. They are simply able to appear as a human.

Whatcha think?

I think certain traditions of Second Temple Judaism and Early Christianity, some found within the New Testament itself, disagree with you, as I pointed out at length here with a short bibliography of peer-reviewed academic books for any interested in pursuing the matter in further depth. To briefly address the content above, angels are conceptualized in exclusively masculine terms, which implies the possession of defining male physical characteristics, whatever they may or may not use them for. You allude to a teaching of Jesus found in Matthew and Mark:

For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. (Matt 22:30)

For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. (Mark 12:25)

Both writers qualify the angels who do not participate in marriage rituals, including their consummation, as being in heaven... this says nothing about what either gospel writer or the historical Jesus (not to be uncritically conflated with the protagonist presented in the biographical writings of early Christians) understood to be the physical capabilities of angels while engaged in assigned duties on earth.

As for the two texts you cited in an earlier post (2 Pet 2:4 and Jude 1:6), both assume the sexual capabilities of angels, but view such as a transgression of the boundaries between the heavenly and earthly realms... note that in each case the reference is paired with a reference to the story of Sodom and Gomorrah's destruction, which was preceded by an attempt at the reverse transgression, namely men desiring to have sex with angels:

and if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction and made them an example of what is coming to the ungodly... (2 Pet 2:6)

Likewise, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which, in the same manner as [the angels], indulged in sexual immorality and went after other flesh, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire. (Jude 1:7)

The comparison drawn in Jude is explicit, indicting both the angels who did not keep their assigned positions and the inhabitants of Sodom, Gomorrah and the other cities of the plain of sexual immorality by going after some sort of flesh different than their own.

Kind regards,
Jonathan

 

[shnarkle]

Jesus said the Angels do not marry. If they do not marry, why would they have sex organs? Is there fornication in Heaven?

One person told me that "well, when they take on the form of a human they have everything a human has."

But I don't buy that. They can appear human, but that doesn't mean they have hearts, lungs, kidney's, not to mention prostates, testicles and the ability to produce human sperm. They are simply able to appear as a human.

Whatcha think?

You're committing the fallacy of the Strawman argument by ignoring what you replied to which was that they possessed these people, and instead answering that they are only avatars of people.

I always find this subject intriguing due to the fact that people sometimes identify with their body to such an extent that they claim they are the physical body. The problem is that they will then routinely claim that this self-same body is theirs.

In other words, the body you claim as your possession is also who you are which conflates being with something you have. It conflates the verb to be with the genitive of possession. People need to make up their minds, but I digress.

The point here is that if you (whoever you think you are) possess a body, then you have all the things that exist in that body. Likewise, if a demon possesses a body, they also have the exact same access to all components of the physical body.

Paul uses the same word used by Moses when he refers to the spiritual body those who are in Christ receive at the resurrection. The word is most accurately translated as their "habitation". They exchanged one for another, and this is also how most people understand demonic possession. They see them as living in the body of the demoniac.

For those who may have seen some of what Hollywood is pumping out these days, might see some similarities to movies like Avatar etc.

 

[Bocco]

Both writers qualify the angels who do not participate in marriage rituals, including their consummation, as being in heaven

You forgot a passage.

Luk 20:34 And Jesus said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage,
Luk 20:35 but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and to the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage,
Luk 20:36 for they cannot die anymore, because they are equal to angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

I don't see the angels above being confined to Heaven.

Notice the "for" at the beginning of verse 26. Jesus is giving an explanation of why they don't marry - because they cannot die anymore, thus there is no purpose for reproduction.

I think certain traditions of Second Temple Judaism and Early Christianity, some found within the New Testament itself, disagree with you

Why should I care about Second Temple Judaism (which denied Christ) or Early Christian traditions?

As for the two texts you cited in an earlier post (2 Pet 2:4 and Jude 1:6), both assume the sexual capabilities of angels, but view such as a transgression of the boundaries between the heavenly and earthly realms... note that in each case the reference is paired with a reference to the story of Sodom and Gomorrah's destruction, which was preceded by an attempt at the reverse transgression, namely men desiring to have sex with angels:

I don't think those men of Sodom desired to have sex with angels. They clearly thought they were just men. Thus the sin was homosexuality.

I don't see anything in those texts that tell me that Jude or Peter assumed the sexual capabilities of angels. You believe that because of your holding to Second Temple Judaism and Early Christian traditions.

Anyhow, here are a few of Michael Heiser's web sites

Dr. Michael Heiser - Biblical Scholar | Author | Semitic Languages Expert

drmsh.com

The Divine Council.com

Michael S. Heiser, PhD

www.thedivinecouncil.com