DEMONS KNOW WHO THEIR GOD IS.

[Towerwatchman]

DEMONS KNOW WHO THEIR GOD IS.


Jn 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

"Know" translates from ginosko. It has a wider scope of meaning than the English word “know”, including perceiving, learning, understanding, experiencing, performing, and willing. To know God is not to be fully intellectually informed about some abstract theological principle, but to understand and experience God. Most certainly, to know God is not to know about Him in an impersonal manner or to struggle philosophically with His essence, but rather have a personal relationship with Him.


γινώσκω [ginosko] AV translates as “know” 196 times, “perceive” nine times, “understand” eight times, and translated miscellaneously 10 times. 1 to learn to know, come to know, get a knowledge of perceive, feel. 1a to become known. 2 to know, understand, perceive, have knowledge of. 2a to understand. 2b to know. 3 Jewish idiom for sexual intercourse between a man and a woman. 4 to become acquainted with, to know. [Strong, James: The Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible]

What is key in the following text is what the evil spirit says.

Acts 19:12 Then some of the itinerant Jewish exorcists took it upon themselves to call the name of the Lord Jesus over those who had evil spirits, saying, “We exorcise you by the Jesus whom Paul preaches.” 14 Also there were seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, who did so. 15 And the evil spirit answered and said, “Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are you?”

In vs 15, the demon uses two different words that are translated as "know". If Jesus was a mere man, as Paul is, then the demon should express his understanding of Jesus and Paul the same. The demon said, "Jesus, I know (ginōsko,= “to know by interaction and experience, to know personally”), but Paul he states, Paul I know (epistamai,= “to be acquainted with, to understand, to know about ”).

ἐπίσταμαι [epistamai ] AV translates as “know” 13 times, and “understand” once. 1 to put one’s attention on, fix one’s thoughts on, to turn one’s self or one’s mind to, put one’s thought upon a thing. 1a to be acquainted with, to understand. 1b to know. [Strong, James: The Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible]


The evil spirit was acquainted [epistamai] with Paul[mere man], but knew [ginosko] his creator Jesus personally.

 

[Andreas]

DEMONS KNOW WHO THEIR GOD IS.


Jn 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

"Know" translates from ginosko. It has a wider scope of meaning than the English word “know”, including perceiving, learning, understanding, experiencing, performing, and willing. To know God is not to be fully intellectually informed about some abstract theological principle, but to understand and experience God. Most certainly, to know God is not to know about Him in an impersonal manner or to struggle philosophically with His essence, but rather have a personal relationship with Him.


γινώσκω [ginosko] AV translates as “know” 196 times, “perceive” nine times, “understand” eight times, and translated miscellaneously 10 times. 1 to learn to know, come to know, get a knowledge of perceive, feel. 1a to become known. 2 to know, understand, perceive, have knowledge of. 2a to understand. 2b to know. 3 Jewish idiom for sexual intercourse between a man and a woman. 4 to become acquainted with, to know. [Strong, James: The Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible]

What is key in the following text is what the evil spirit says.

Acts 19:12 Then some of the itinerant Jewish exorcists took it upon themselves to call the name of the Lord Jesus over those who had evil spirits, saying, “We exorcise you by the Jesus whom Paul preaches.” 14 Also there were seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, who did so. 15 And the evil spirit answered and said, “Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are you?”

In vs 15, the demon uses two different words that are translated as "know". If Jesus was a mere man, as Paul is, then the demon should express his understanding of Jesus and Paul the same. The demon said, "Jesus, I know (ginōsko,= “to know by interaction and experience, to know personally”), but Paul he states, Paul I know (epistamai,= “to be acquainted with, to understand, to know about ”).

ἐπίσταμαι [epistamai ] AV translates as “know” 13 times, and “understand” once. 1 to put one’s attention on, fix one’s thoughts on, to turn one’s self or one’s mind to, put one’s thought upon a thing. 1a to be acquainted with, to understand. 1b to know. [Strong, James: The Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible]


The evil spirit was acquainted [epistamai] with Paul[mere man], but knew [ginosko] his creator Jesus personally.

Yes, that is why it is important to know that Jesus is not one person in the Godhead, but that all the fullness of the Godhead dwells in Him. Colossians 2:9

 

[Towerwatchman]

The question is, how does the demon know him personally if Jesus Did not exist Until he was born

 

[Andreas]

The question is, how does the demon know him personally if Jesus Did not exist Until he was born

You must not have read my suggested reference or if you did, you didn't pay attention.

You're asking what do you do with all the verses that say that Jesus pre-existed the incarnation. I accept them. Jesus is God, he is the FIRST and the LAST. Since, he is God and God has no beginning, then it follows simply that Jesus is eternal. He became man in time and space (Galatians 4:4, Luke 1:35).

Are you confusing Oneness with Arianism?

 

[Towerwatchman]

You must not have read my suggested reference or if you did, you didn't pay attention.

You're asking what do you do with all the verses that say that Jesus pre-existed the incarnation. I accept them. Jesus is God, he is the FIRST and the LAST. Since, he is God and God has no beginning, then it follows simply that Jesus is eternal. He became man in time and space (Galatians 4:4, Luke 1:35).

Are you confusing Oneness with Arianism?

When I first asked this question you wrote no, now you write yes, with this highly contrived explanation.
On the Oneness form I posted the thread “must exist in order to consider.” Where I invited you to continue this conversation. May I suggest you go there and post your remarks after reading it.

 

[Andreas]

When I first asked this question you wrote no, now you write yes, with this highly contrived explanation.
On the Oneness form I posted the thread “must exist in order to consider.” Where I invited you to continue this conversation. May I suggest you go there and post your remarks after reading it.

I don't know what you are talking about. Can you send the link to where I wrote "no"?

I do see the Phil 2 thread.

There is nothing ambiguous or anything to be contrived. Jesus is God and he always has been. Where is the confusion for you?

 

[Towerwatchman]

I don't know what you are talking about. Can you send the link to where I wrote "no"?

I do see the Phil 2 thread.

There is nothing ambiguous or anything to be contrived. Jesus is God and he always has been. Where is the confusion for you?

My question ..."Did Jesus exist as a free willed, cognitive, center of self consciousness distinct from the Father and HS, before the incarnation or His birth?

- 1 Jn 5:2. Jesus=God

You need to get a hold of these passages from Paul in 1 Corinthians 15 below. 32 If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus with no more than human hopes, what have I gained? If the dead are not raised, “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.” Notice in the above, Paul very clearly reveals that...

forums.carm.org

Your answer "... I don't believe in three gods called Father, Son, and Holy Ghost so NO Jesus didn't exist as "a free willed, cognitive center of self-consciousness distinct from the Father". He is the eternal LORD God Himself who is manifested in flesh.

- 1 Jn 5:2. Jesus=God

You need to get a hold of these passages from Paul in 1 Corinthians 15 below. 32 If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus with no more than human hopes, what have I gained? If the dead are not raised, “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.” Notice in the above, Paul very clearly reveals that...

forums.carm.org

Conversation to continue on

- Phil 2 Must Exist To Be Able To Consider

Must exist to consider. Phil 2:5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. Let’s pay close...

forums.carm.org

see you there.

 

[Andreas]

My question ..."Did Jesus exist as a free willed, cognitive, center of self consciousness distinct from the Father and HS, before the incarnation or His birth?

- 1 Jn 5:2. Jesus=God

You need to get a hold of these passages from Paul in 1 Corinthians 15 below. 32 If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus with no more than human hopes, what have I gained? If the dead are not raised, “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.” Notice in the above, Paul very clearly reveals that...

forums.carm.org

Your answer "... I don't believe in three gods called Father, Son, and Holy Ghost so NO Jesus didn't exist as "a free willed, cognitive center of self-consciousness distinct from the Father". He is the eternal LORD God Himself who is manifested in flesh.

- 1 Jn 5:2. Jesus=God

You need to get a hold of these passages from Paul in 1 Corinthians 15 below. 32 If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus with no more than human hopes, what have I gained? If the dead are not raised, “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.” Notice in the above, Paul very clearly reveals that...

forums.carm.org

Conversation to continue on

- Phil 2 Must Exist To Be Able To Consider

Must exist to consider. Phil 2:5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. Let’s pay close...

forums.carm.org

see you there.

This is why I said I would have to repeat myself again and again about the authentic humanity of Christ, because you have been unwittingly robbed of the foundations of truth. I'll keep repeating that because it is a hard acceptance. The doctrine of the Trinity is pernicious (Colossians 2:8).


No Jesus didn't exist as a free willed, cognitive center of self-consciousness distinct from the Father. Nothing in the Bible teaches that. But, He did exist as God, just not as another God person distinct from the Father. Nothing in the Bible teaches that. However, Jesus is the One God manifested in the flesh, so as God he did have a center of consciousness from eternity but not in distinction from the Father. The NT makes a functional distinction between God and His Word but this is not a distinction of two persons any more than your word is another person of you.

So, let's repeat and be as clear as possible for you. Jesus is God. He is the First and the Last. He is the mighty God, the everlasting Father (Isaiah 9:6). He is YHWH (LORD, the great I AM). However, as God he didn't exist alongside other God persons. The one God in the fullness of time took on a genuine human existence and this is why the man Jesus Christ calls God, his Father (Galatians 4:4; Luke 1:35; 2 Timothy 3:16).

Let's go a bit deeper. The distinction is not a distinction of persons but rather a distinction between God invisible and God manifested. There is just one God.

 

[Towerwatchman]

Seems you have difficulty finding the oneness thread, so here it is.

Must exist to consider.

Phil 2:5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.

Let’s pay close attention to “consider” in vs 6. Consider = think carefully about (something), typically before deciding. To have not considered equality with God something to be grasped, Jesus would to have considered it something to grasp also. To decide you need to have more than one option to decide on, therefore He decided between considering it something to be grasped, and not to be grasped. Therefore, to be able to consider between two options one would have to have cognitive ability to freely choose, otherwise known as free will. And if free will then a cognitive thinking, center of self-consciousness, separate from the One He is considering His equality with.

Same applies to vs 7

Note the opening to vs 7 “BUT” a conjunction = used to introduce something contrasting with what has already been mentioned.

The combination of chronological order with the use of the conjunction ‘but’, vs 7 introduces the choice Jesus made in contrast to what He was considering in vs 6.

Therefore, to be able to make a choice between two options one would have to have cognitive ability to freely weigh the options, otherwise known as free will. And if free will then a cognitive thinking, center of self-consciousness, separate from the One He is considering His equality with.

Conclusion. Jesus existed as a free willed, cognitive, center of self consciousness distinct from the Father and HS, before the incarnation or His birth.

 

[Andreas]

Seems you have difficulty finding the oneness thread, so here it is.

Must exist to consider.

Phil 2:5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.

Let’s pay close attention to “consider” in vs 6. Consider = think carefully about (something), typically before deciding. To have not considered equality with God something to be grasped, Jesus would to have considered it something to grasp also. To decide you need to have more than one option to decide on, therefore He decided between considering it something to be grasped, and not to be grasped. Therefore, to be able to consider between two options one would have to have cognitive ability to freely choose, otherwise known as free will. And if free will then a cognitive thinking, center of self-consciousness, separate from the One He is considering His equality with.

Same applies to vs 7

Note the opening to vs 7 “BUT” a conjunction = used to introduce something contrasting with what has already been mentioned.

The combination of chronological order with the use of the conjunction ‘but’, vs 7 introduces the choice Jesus made in contrast to what He was considering in vs 6.

Therefore, to be able to make a choice between two options one would have to have cognitive ability to freely weigh the options, otherwise known as free will. And if free will then a cognitive thinking, center of self-consciousness, separate from the One He is considering His equality with.

Conclusion. Jesus existed as a free willed, cognitive, center of self consciousness distinct from the Father and HS, before the incarnation or His birth.

Again, you have been robbed by the philosophy of Trinitarian thought, so that you are finding it difficult to think outside that pernicious thought box. I was clear that Jesus was God and therefore was/is rational and had/has self-consciousness. What I'm saying is that His self-consciousness as God was not distinct from the Father.

 

[Towerwatchman]

Again, you have been robbed by the philosophy of Trinitarian thought, so that you are finding it difficult to think outside that pernicious thought box. I was clear that Jesus was God and therefore was/is rational and had/has self-consciousness. What I'm saying is that His self-consciousness as God was not distinct from the Father.

Total nonsense.
Why?
Because your religious worldview cannot answer a simple question,; therefore, you attacked me versus addressing the post.
Paul was explicit and literal in the passage. Jesus existed as a cognitive free will center of self consciousness, separate from the father and the Holy Spirit before the incarnation. Now, if you disagree, you would need to address Philippians 2.

 

[Andreas]

Total nonsense.
Why?
Because your religious worldview cannot answer a simple question,; therefore, you attacked me versus addressing the post.
Paul was explicit and literal in the passage. Jesus existed as a cognitive free will center of self consciousness, separate from the father and the Holy Spirit before the incarnation. Now, if you disagree, you would need to address Philippians 2.

Where exactly does Philippians 2 say Jesus existed as a cognitive free will center of self-consciousness "separate from the Father and the Holy Spirit before the incarnation". You are reading into this passage what is not there. I will post on your Phil 2 thread, but how is what you believe actually different than 3 gods?

 

[Towerwatchman]

Where exactly does Philippians 2 say Jesus existed as a cognitive free will center of self-consciousness "separate from the Father and the Holy Spirit before the incarnation". You are reading into this passage what is not there. I will post on your Phil 2 thread, but how is what you believe actually different than 3 gods?

You can’t make a simple conclusion from the passage? Imagine if I use that same line of questioning when you post your arguments.
Is your worldview capable of addressing the post?

 

[Andreas]

You can’t make a simple conclusion from the passage? Imagine if I use that same line of questioning when you post your arguments.
Is your worldview capable of addressing the post?

The problem is that you are making your inference about the passage from a Trinitarian perspective. The text actually says nothing about different persons and three centers of consciousness in the Godhead. What is does say is that Jesus is God but became one of us to serve us in humility. For further comments about this go to your three on Phil 2.

 

[Towerwatchman]

The problem is that you are making your inference about the passage from a Trinitarian perspective. The text actually says nothing about different persons and three centers of consciousness in the Godhead. What is does say is that Jesus is God but became one of us to serve us in humility. For further comments about this go to your three on Phil 2.

Don’t change the subject, I am not arguing that Jesus is God, that I can prove later. The subject is if Jesus existed before the incarnation as a cognitive free will center of self consciousness apart from the father and the Holy Spirit. Try to address that from the passage.

 

[Andreas]

Don’t change the subject, I am not arguing that Jesus is God, that I can prove later. The subject is if Jesus existed before the incarnation as a cognitive free will center of self consciousness apart from the father and the Holy Spirit. Try to address that from the passage.

Please try to keep up. I gave a detailed scriptural explanation of Philippians 2 on your other thread. Many Trinitarians would disagree with you about God having 3 minds and 3 wills. That's waaaaay out there. I can't address your three minds concept from Philippians 2 any more than I can address pink elephants dancing in the sky, because it is not there. I can't address what is not there, other than give you great reasons why it is not so.

 

[Towerwatchman]

Please try to keep up. I gave a detailed scriptural explanation of Philippians 2 on your other thread. Many Trinitarians would disagree with you about God having 3 minds and 3 wills. That's waaaaay out there. I can't address your three minds concept from Philippians 2 any more than I can address pink elephants dancing in the sky, because it is not there. I can't address what is not there, other than give you great reasons why it is not so.

First spare the rudeness. It’s usually the last position ignorance takes when you can’t deal with the subject matter. I believe you were above that.

As to many trinitarians that may disagree with me, that is the fallacy of appealing to anonymous authority. You would have to start quoting if you think that carries any weight.

And again the issue is not the Trinity, but did Jesus exist as x prior to the incarnation.

Notice you are skirting around the subject matter.