Depravity

Johnnybgood

Well-known member
Why do people deny mans depravity when they read scriptures like these ?

Romans 3:12
All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.”


Psalm 53:3
All have turned away, they have together become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one

Psalm 14:3
They are all gone aside, they are alltogether become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Ecclesiastes 7:29
Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions

Psalm 53:1
To the chief Musician upon Mahalath, Maschil, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.

Ecclesiastes 7:20
For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

Isaiah 64:6
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Why do people deny mans depravity when they read scriptures like these ?

Romans 3:12
All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.”


Psalm 53:3
All have turned away, they have together become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one

Psalm 14:3
They are all gone aside, they are alltogether become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Ecclesiastes 7:29
Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions

Psalm 53:1
To the chief Musician upon Mahalath, Maschil, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.

Ecclesiastes 7:20
For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

Isaiah 64:6
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
Why? Because they are Depraved...
 

civic

Well-known member
Because its offensive just like Jesus is offensive. Man likes to think he is better than God sees them. Not only is man depraved they are 100% completely and totally depraved. Everything man does apart from God is selfish, worldly, opposed to Gods wisdom and ways. Jesus said the world hates Him and will hate you. Why ? Because man apart from God loves sin, hates God and is completely selfish. So whatever might look "good" on the outside will be revealed to be selfish and worldly which is the opposite of Gods ways.
 

civic

Well-known member
Why? Because they are Depraved...
Here are some more scriptures on the topic.

1)Man by nature is deceitful (Jeremiah 17:9)

2)Man is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23)

3)Man loves darkness (John 3:19)

4)Man does not seek for God (Romans 3:10-12)

5)Man is ungodly (Romans 5:6)

6)Man is dead in his sins (Ephesians 2:1)

7)Man by nature is a child of wrath (Ephesians 2:3)

8)Man cannot understand spiritual things (1 Corinthians 2:14)

9)Man is a slave of sin (Romans 6:16-20)

10)Man is sinful at birth, sinful from the time of conception (Psalms 51:5)

11)Man is like a filthy rag his garments stained by sin and is unrighteous (Isaiah 64:6)

12)Man is hostile towards God and cannot submit to Him or His law (Romans 8:7)

13)Man cannot do good and is completely incapable of such an act (Romans 3:12)

14)Man is not born with faith so everything is done in sin (Romans 14:23)

15)Man has not one single thing that is good in him (Romans 7:18)

16)Man is born condemned (John 3:18)
 

civic

Well-known member
No one denies depravity of man; the issue, is denying the ability of man to hear and believe God's witnesses.
And that can only come by God acting first by His grace in the depraved mans life. Without Gods intervention they cannot see truth, hear truth or comprehend the truth concerning Jesus and the gospel.

hope this helps !!!
 

praise_yeshua

Well-known member
And that can only come by God acting first by His grace in the depraved mans life. Without Gods intervention they cannot see truth, hear truth or comprehend the truth concerning Jesus and the gospel.

hope this helps !!!

1. Did not God acted by Grace to give man the Gospel?
2. Did not God superintend the preaching of the Gospel in the simplest of terms so that any person can understand what they hear?

I believe if you answer "Yes" to these two questions. It is very hard then to add any additional criteria.
 

praise_yeshua

Well-known member
Why do people deny mans depravity when they read scriptures like these ?

Romans 3:12
All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.”


Psalm 53:3
All have turned away, they have together become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one

Psalm 14:3
They are all gone aside, they are alltogether become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Ecclesiastes 7:29
Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions

Psalm 53:1
To the chief Musician upon Mahalath, Maschil, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.

Ecclesiastes 7:20
For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

Isaiah 64:6
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

There is no denying depravity. However, I want to be clear about what I'm about to say......

The concept that is taught through these Scriptures is that man isn't good enough. Man is not righteous enough. Natural men do good things all the time. Even righteous things. However, these actions can NEVER be good enough. NEVER.

If you understand this fact from the Scriptures, then you will understand Depravity.

Depravity is all about not being good enough. Not Righteous in the eyes of God.

1. There are many many natural men that are much better people than tons of church members running around claiming redemption through the Blood of Jesus Christ.

2. There is more necessary to Righteous than just action. Thoughts and intent is very important.

3. The Gospel CUTS TO THE HEART and the intent. It is Innately powerful.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
 

PeanutGallery

Well-known member
And that can only come by God acting first by His grace in the depraved mans life. Without Gods intervention they cannot see truth, hear truth or comprehend the truth concerning Jesus and the gospel.

hope this helps !!!
Of course God intervenes; he gave us creation that testifies, law written in the hearts, conscience bearing witness, the Holy Spirit reproving, the gospel the power of God unto salvation to whosoever believes.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
You're a human being yourself. Why are you different?
God's Grace made the difference in my life. Until the Grace of God opened the starting Gate in my Horse Race, all I could do is chomp at the Bit...

After Grace? Sure, I was Totally Able...

Everyone agrees with this, but later they act as if they have never heard it before in their life...
 

eternomade

Well-known member
God's Grace made the difference in my life. Until the Grace of God opening the Gates in my Horse Race, all I could do is chomp at the Bit...
My free will always chooses sin.
After Grace? Sure, I was Totally Able...

Everyone agrees with this, but later they act as if they have never heard it before in their life...
I am struggling with this concept still.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
My free will always chooses sin.

I am struggling with this concept still.
One way to look at it that may help, is to focus on "Filthy-Rag faith". Our righteousness is as Filthy Rags, so Faith without Grace is also one of our filthiest rags. If a Jew has Faith in YHWH, it is a Filthy Rag; right?

After Grace? My Faith is no longer a Filthy Rag...

It's the Faith of a Regenerated person...
 
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ReverendRV

Well-known member
After Grace? Sure, I was Totally Able...

Everyone agrees with this, but later they act as if they have never heard it before in their life...
The reason I have to raise the point over-and-over is because everyone agrees with it; but they like to argue too much. They'd rather let my point cool off, then start arguing for Prevenient Ability again...

Even when they agree there is no Prevenient Ability because of the mandate for prevening Grace, they can't help themselves!
 

eternomade

Well-known member
The reason I have to raise the point over-and-over is because everyone agrees with it; but they like to argue too much. They'd rather let my point cool off, then start arguing for Prevenient Ability again...

Even when they agree there is no Prevenient Ability because of the mandate for some sort of Prevenient Grace!
When you say "Sure, I was totally able" do you mean "Christ in you"? Are you speaking of your will, or Christs?

You know I believe ALL of salvation is monergistic, so this is why I struggle with this.
 

civic

Well-known member
When you say "Sure, I was totally able" do you mean "Christ in you"? Are you speaking of your will, or Christs?

You know I believe ALL of salvation is monergistic, so this is why I struggle with this.
Think of it this way- Jesus told His disciples apart from Me you can do nothing in John 15:5. So anything we are able to do spiritually is done by and through Christ in you the Hope of Glory. Col 1:27-30.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
When you say "Sure, I was totally able" do you mean "Christ in you"? Are you speaking of your will, or Christs?

You know I believe ALL of salvation is monergistic, so this is why I struggle with this.
I mean I 100 percent can of myself Will to believe after I'm Regenerated by the Grace of God. Of course I still believe that Christ Works in me to Will and to do this specific Good-Pleasure. We are not Robots or Puppets. If so, God would be Culpable...

In Heaven the Elect Angels are not the Puppets of God. While on Earth before he died, Jesus Christ wasn't God's Robot either. But the Angels of God and Jesus Christ all do the Good-Pleasure of God of their own Free Will...

So do you and I. The WCF says the Liberty of the Will is established as a true Cause in Life...
 

eternomade

Well-known member
I mean I 100 percent can of myself Will to believe after I'm Regenerated by the Grace of God. Of course I still believe that Christ Works in me to Will and to do this specific Good-Pleasure. We are not Robots or Puppets. If so, God would be Culpable...

In Heaven the Elect Angels are not the Puppets of God. While on Earth before he died, Jesus Christ wasn't God's Robot either. But the Angels of God and Jesus Christ all do the Good-Pleasure of God of their own Free Will...

So do you and I. The WCF says the Liberty of the Will is established as a true Cause in Life...
I feel like this often...but when I do, I rest in His grace. My mind often doubts. Its so tricky navigating the grace and law. When I do something good, my self righteousness gives me assurance, rather than Christ. When I sin, my self righteousness doubts the grace of God. He is good though!

15 For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16 Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. 17 So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.
 

praise_yeshua

Well-known member
Think of it this way- Jesus told His disciples apart from Me you can do nothing in John 15:5. So anything we are able to do spiritually is done by and through Christ in you the Hope of Glory. Col 1:27-30.

I suppose you take the same approach with....

Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
 
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