Depravity

praise_yeshua

Well-known member
One way to look at it that may help, is to focus on "Filthy-Rag faith". Our righteousness is as Filthy Rags, so Faith without Grace is also one of our filthiest rags. If a Jew has Faith in YHWH, it is a Filthy Rag; right?

After Grace? My Faith is no longer a Filthy Rag...

It's the Faith of a Regenerated person...

Huge Problem. Faith pleases God. Faith is never a "filthy rag".

Prove it.
 

praise_yeshua

Well-known member
The reason I have to raise the point over-and-over is because everyone agrees with it; but they like to argue too much. They'd rather let my point cool off, then start arguing for Prevenient Ability again...

Even when they agree there is no Prevenient Ability because of the mandate for prevening Grace, they can't help themselves!

I don't know if I agree or not. It depends on how you construct the argument. Short summary?
 

praise_yeshua

Well-known member
I mean I 100 percent can of myself Will to believe after I'm Regenerated by the Grace of God. Of course I still believe that Christ Works in me to Will and to do this specific Good-Pleasure. We are not Robots or Puppets. If so, God would be Culpable...

In Heaven the Elect Angels are not the Puppets of God. While on Earth before he died, Jesus Christ wasn't God's Robot either. But the Angels of God and Jesus Christ all do the Good-Pleasure of God of their own Free Will...

So do you and I. The WCF says the Liberty of the Will is established as a true Cause in Life...

Divinity is Impeccable. Jesus Christ's Nature was Impeccable. Jesus Christ never had a fully fallen human nature. This creates a problem in your scenario.

You're close. So very close. In fact, your view of "freedom of will" is essential to understanding God's purpose in the Election/Creation. To create a people that of their own free-will.

You're just removing that fact from your equation.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
I don't know if I agree or not. It depends on how you construct the argument. Short summary?
The shortest summary is that the first factor of Salvation is always the Grace of God; as you understand it. And without this Grace, we are Totally Unable; because the hurdle of Grace has to be reached first. If required Grace is the last hurdle, we're Saved after all we can do...

It's why I used the analogy of Horse Racing, and being behind the starting Gate. If the first part of Running the Race as to win the prize is Grace, we're Totally Unable to run behind the closed gate of Grace. It's like a Track Meet and a Starting Pistol, you have to wait on the pistol of Grace or it's a False-Start; you've jumped the Blocks...
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Divinity is Impeccable. Jesus Christ's Nature was Impeccable. Jesus Christ never had a fully fallen human nature. This creates a problem in your scenario.

You're close. So very close. In fact, your view of "freedom of will" is essential to understanding God's purpose in the Election/Creation. To create a people that of their own free-will.

You're just removing that fact from your equation.
I'm glad you think we're close..
 

praise_yeshua

Well-known member
The shortest summary is that the first factor of Salvation is always the Grace of God; as you understand it. And without this Grace, we are Totally Unable; because the hurdle of Grace has to be reached first. If required Grace is the last hurdle, we're Saved after all we can do...

This why I asked about Grace earlier.

1. God has shown Grace to all men in many ways.
2. What Grace are you claiming exclusively for yourself?

It's why I used the analogy of Horse Racing, and being behind the starting Gate. If the first part of Running the Race as to win the prize is Grace, we're Totally Unable to run behind the closed gate of Grace. It's like a Track Meet and a Starting Pistol, you have to wait on the pistol of Grace or it's a False-Start; you've jumped the Blocks...

How can you say this when the Gospel of the Grace of God is openly preached to all men? The Gospel of the Grace of God is the Starting Pistol.

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

These verses very clear tell us what the Starting Pistol is.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Maybe I missed it. Give me one verse that says that Faith is a Filthy-Rag. I can show plenty of examples where faith pleases God. I see it now
You'll find that in my Thread. The Verse doesn't mention Faith, but it doesn't mention getting rich either. It does mention that everything about us is a Filthy Rag. I'll most likely stop talking about it here...
 
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