DesiringGod (John Piper) answers TomFL!

Sketo

Well-known member
This is John Pipers direct answer to TomFL’s accusation against Calvinism...


“Norman Geisler ( and TomFL) says that ‘the unmistakable logical conclusion for the extreme Calvinist [is that] both Lucifer and Adam sinned because God gave them the desire to sin’ (Chosen But Free, 36). I (Norman Geisler) would imagine that Adam received his desire to sin from Eve, who received it from the serpent/Satan, but if God is sovereign over all thingsincluding our desireswould that make him the initial author of the first desire to sin? How do you answer this mystery?” - Rob


That was the direct question to John Piper of DesiringGod.org
And Here is his answer...



How did Satan become evil? I do not know. It is plain to me that those who believe in ultimate self-determination of God’s creatures (like angels and humans) don’t know either. To say that Satan had free will — that is, ultimate self-determination — is not an explanation for why he committed his first sin. It is a label. It is not an explanation.

It is a label of a mystery
. How could a perfectly good being — with a perfectly good will and a perfectly good heart — ever experience any imperfect impulse that would cause the will to move in the direction of sin? The answer is that nobody knows, including those who say, “Oh, it is free will.” That is not an explanation. It is a name for a mystery.

We don’t know. The Bible doesn’t explain how. Rob quotes Norman Geisler, who says, “The unmistakable logical conclusion for the extreme Calvinist [is that] both Lucifer and Adam sinned because God gave them the desire to sin.” Now I am not sure whether I qualify as Geisler’s “extreme Calvinist,” but I strongly suspect that I do.

At this point I am disagreeing with that description of me, and I am saying, “No, I am not driven to say God gave Lucifer his first desire to sin. That is an oversimplification of virtually everybody’s viewpoint. I do not know how Lucifer came to feel his first inclination to rebel against God.” - John Piper (DesiringDod.org)


 

TomFL

Well-known member
This is John Pipers direct answer to TomFL’s accusation against Calvinism...


“Norman Geisler ( and TomFL) says that ‘the unmistakable logical conclusion for the extreme Calvinist [is that] both Lucifer and Adam sinned because God gave them the desire to sin’ (Chosen But Free, 36). I (Norman Geisler) would imagine that Adam received his desire to sin from Eve, who received it from the serpent/Satan, but if God is sovereign over all thingsincluding our desireswould that make him the initial author of the first desire to sin? How do you answer this mystery?” - Rob


Wrong Tom denied Adam sinned because Gof hgave him the desire to sin

Calvinism did that

If God merely foresaw human events, and did not also arrange and dispose of them at his pleasure, there might be room for agitating the question, how far his foreknowledge amounts to necessity; but since he foresees the things which are to happen, simply because he has decreed that they are so to happen, it is vain to debate about prescience, while it is clear that all events take place by his sovereign appointment.
Institutes of the Christian Religion. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)

…God is the only being who is ultimately self-determining, and is himself ultimately the disposer of all things, including all choices — however many or diverse other intervening causes are. On this definition, no human being has free will, at any time. Neither before or after the fall, or in heaven, are creatures ultimately self-determining. There are great measures of self-determination, as the Bible often shows, but never is man the ultimate or decisive cause of his preferences and choices. When man’s agency and God’s agency are compared, both are real, but God’s is decisive
beginners guide to free will

“God . . . brings about all things in accordance with his will. In other words, it isn’t just that God manages to turn the evil aspects of our world to good for those who love him; it is rather that he himself brings about these evil aspects for his glory (see Ex. 9:13-16; John 9:3) and his people’s good (see Heb. 12:3-11; James 1:2-4). This includes—as incredible and as unacceptable as it may currently seem—God’s having even brought about the Nazis’ brutality at Birkenau and Auschwitz as well as the terrible killings of Dennis Rader and even the sexual abuse of a young child…


Nothing that exists or occurs falls outside God’s ordaining will. Nothing, including no evil person or thing or event or deed. God’s foreordination is the ultimate reason why everything comes about, including the existence of all evil persons and things and the occurrence of any evil acts or events. And so it is not inappropriate to take God to be the creator, the sender, the permitter, and sometimes even the instigator of evil… Nothing — no evil thing or person or event or deed — falls outside God’s ordaining will. Nothing arises, exists, or endures independently of God’s will. So when even the worst of evils befall us, they do not ultimately come from anywhere other than God’s hand.

b Talbot, "All the Good That Is Ours in Christ", in Suffering and the Sovereignty of God, ed. John Piper and Justin Taylor,

how foolish and frail is the support of divine justice afforded by the suggestion that evils come to be, not by His will but by His permission…It is a quite frivolous refuge to say that God otiosely permits them, when Scripture shows Him not only willing, but the author of them…Who does not tremble at these judgments with which God works in the hearts of even the wicked whatever He will, rewarding them nonetheless according to desert? Again it is quite clear from the evidence of Scripture that God works in the hearts of men to incline their wills just as he will, whether to good for His mercy’s sake, or to evil according to their merits. ” (John Calvin, “The Eternal Predestination of God,” 10:11)

and none of them are Tomfl

You got the wrong party
 

Sketo

Well-known member
John Piper explains the purpose of permitting Adams sin...

I want us to focus on the glory of Christ as the main
purpose that God had in mind when he planned for and permitted Adam’s sin, and with him the fall of all humanity into sin. Remember what I said last week: Whatever God permits, he permits for a reason. And his reasons are always infinitely wise and purposeful. He did not have to let the Fall happen. He could have stopped it, just like he could have stopped the fall of Satan. The fact that he did not stop it means he has a reason, a purpose for it. And he doesn’t make up his plans as he goes along. What he knows to be wise, he has always known to be wise. Therefore, Adam’s sin and the fall of the human race with him into sin and misery did not take God off guard and is part of his overarching plan to display the fullness of the glory of Jesus Christ.

One of the clearest ways to show this from the Bible—and we won’t go into it in detail here—is to look at those places where the sin-defeating sacrifice of Christ is shown to be in God’s mind before the creation of the world. (For more detail, see the message "The Suffering of Christ and the Sovereignty of God.") For example, in Revelation 13:8, John writes about “everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.” So there was a book before the foundation of the world called “the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.” Before the world was created, God had already planned that his Son would be slain like a Lamb to save all those who are written in the book. We could go to numerous other texts like this (Ephesians 1:4-5; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 1:1-2; 1 Peter 1:20) to see the biblical view that the sufferings and death of Christ for sin are not planned after the sin of Adam but before. Therefore, when the sin of Adam happens, God is not surprised by it, but has already made it part of his plan—namely, a plan to display his amazing patience and grace and justice and wrath in the history of redemption, and then, climactically, to reveal the greatness of his Son as the second Adam superior in every way to the first Adam.

So we look at Romans 5:12-21, this time keeping in mind that Adam’s spectacular sin did not frustrate God’s Christ-exalting purposes, but instead served them. Here’s the way we will look at these verses. There are five explicit references to Christ. One of them sets up the way Paul is thinking about Christ and Adam. And the rest show how Christ is greater than Adam. Two of those are so similar we will lump them together. Which means we will look at three aspects of Christ’s superiority....

 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
This is John Pipers direct answer to TomFL’s accusation against Calvinism...


“Norman Geisler ( and TomFL) says that ‘the unmistakable logical conclusion for the extreme Calvinist [is that] both Lucifer and Adam sinned because God gave them the desire to sin’ (Chosen But Free, 36). I (Norman Geisler) would imagine that Adam received his desire to sin from Eve, who received it from the serpent/Satan, but if God is sovereign over all thingsincluding our desireswould that make him the initial author of the first desire to sin? How do you answer this mystery?” - Rob


That was the direct question to John Piper of DesiringGod.org
And Here is his answer...



How did Satan become evil? I do not know. It is plain to me that those who believe in ultimate self-determination of God’s creatures (like angels and humans) don’t know either. To say that Satan had free will — that is, ultimate self-determination — is not an explanation for why he committed his first sin. It is a label. It is not an explanation.

It is a label of a mystery
. How could a perfectly good being — with a perfectly good will and a perfectly good heart — ever experience any imperfect impulse that would cause the will to move in the direction of sin? The answer is that nobody knows, including those who say, “Oh, it is free will.” That is not an explanation. It is a name for a mystery.

We don’t know. The Bible doesn’t explain how. Rob quotes Norman Geisler, who says, “The unmistakable logical conclusion for the extreme Calvinist [is that] both Lucifer and Adam sinned because God gave them the desire to sin.” Now I am not sure whether I qualify as Geisler’s “extreme Calvinist,” but I strongly suspect that I do.

At this point I am disagreeing with that description of me, and I am saying, “No, I am not driven to say God gave Lucifer his first desire to sin. That is an oversimplification of virtually everybody’s viewpoint. I do not know how Lucifer came to feel his first inclination to rebel against God.” - John Piper (DesiringDod.org)


The line of Thinking I want to develop is, that to a Non Calvinist, God's involvement in the Commencement of any Sin must/has to be Synergistic; because they say that if this is the case, it's inescapable that God is Culpable as the Author of Sin. I'm sure that TomL would agree, saying that Soft Determinism has to be rounded up to Hard Determinism. Since it's true that God is involved in the Commencement of Sin, God is the Author of Sin if his Decree is Synergistic. We all know that God is not the Author of Sin, so God's Providence and Decree CANNOT be Synergistic. God's involvement in the Commencement of Sin is TRUE, so his Providence is Monergistically Sovereign...

Why does Soft Determinism always have to be rounded up? I think it's because they can't help but to understand everything Synergistically...
 
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civic

Well-known member
The line of Thinking I want to develop is, that to a Non Calvinist, God's involvement in the Commencement of any Sin must/has to be Synergistic; because they say that if this is the case, it's inescapable that God is Culpable as the Author of Sin. I'm sure that TomL would agree, saying that Soft Determinism has to be rounded up to Hard Determinism. Since it's true that God is involved in the Commencement of Sin, God is the Author of Sin if his Decree is Synergistic. We all know that God is not the Author of Sin, so God's Providence and Decree CANNOT be Synergistic. God's involvement in the Commencement of Sin is TRUE, so his Providence is Monergistically Sovereign...

Why does Soft Determinism always have to be rounded up? I think it's because they can't help but to understand everything Synergistically...
This to me is where getting boxed into any "system" of theology has its weakness.

There are some things on this side of eternity will will never know and maybe on the other side it will never matter nor will we have any concern for it like we do on this side.

For me the important things to concern ourselves with is what we do know, those things that are black and white, the things that concern ourselves with becoming more like Christ than winning a non salvific argument on secondary of tertiary things.

What we do know is that God is Holy, Sinless, Impeccable and as such cannot be held responsible for evil and sin. Whatever original free will(if there was such a thing) looked like in the beginning with lucifer and adam somehow that (will) which was free to choose to rebel against their Creator had to come from within the creature, not the Creator. There was a freedom to love in its purest form and somehow that was violated by the creature and God is not held culpable for lucifer and adams choice to sin.

I could be wrong but this is how I see it as I hold God to the highest of standards with purity,holiness, impeccability, love, light etc.........

Gods character/attributes cannot include sin and its origin. But for whatever reason Gods perfect creation allowed for evil to come forth as a by product of their rebellion.

Its a complex issue and one many find God guilty of hence they reject the God of the bible because of the problem of sin, pain, suffering etc.......
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
This to me is where getting boxed into any "system" of theology has its weakness.

There are some things on this side of eternity will will never know and maybe on the other side it will never matter nor will we have any concern for it like we do on this side.

For me the important things to concern ourselves with is what we do know, those things that are black and white, the things that concern ourselves with becoming more like Christ than winning a non salvific argument on secondary of tertiary things.

What we do know is that God is Holy, Sinless, Impeccable and as such cannot be held responsible for evil and sin. Whatever original free will(if there was such a thing) looked like in the beginning with lucifer and adam somehow that (will) which was free to choose to rebel against their Creator had to come from within the creature, not the Creator. There was a freedom to love in its purest form and somehow that was violated by the creature and God is not held culpable for lucifer and adams choice to sin.

I could be wrong but this is how I see it as I hold God to the highest of standards with purity,holiness, impeccability, love, light etc.........

Gods character/attributes cannot include sin and its origin. But for whatever reason Gods perfect creation allowed for evil to come forth as a by product of their rebellion.

Its a complex issue and one many find God guilty of hence they reject the God of the bible because of the problem of sin, pain, suffering etc.......
I like how you call it 'getting Boxed-In to a System of Theology'; I use their Box against them...

I say that God 'Meant' his Decree and his Providence for Good, while we mean it for Evil; but we both Meant it...
 

preacher4truth

Well-known member
This is John Pipers direct answer to TomFL’s accusation against Calvinism...


“Norman Geisler ( and TomFL) says that ‘the unmistakable logical conclusion for the extreme Calvinist [is that] both Lucifer and Adam sinned because God gave them the desire to sin’ (Chosen But Free, 36). I (Norman Geisler) would imagine that Adam received his desire to sin from Eve, who received it from the serpent/Satan, but if God is sovereign over all thingsincluding our desireswould that make him the initial author of the first desire to sin? How do you answer this mystery?” - Rob


That was the direct question to John Piper of DesiringGod.org
And Here is his answer...



How did Satan become evil? I do not know. It is plain to me that those who believe in ultimate self-determination of God’s creatures (like angels and humans) don’t know either. To say that Satan had free will — that is, ultimate self-determination — is not an explanation for why he committed his first sin. It is a label. It is not an explanation.

It is a label of a mystery
. How could a perfectly good being — with a perfectly good will and a perfectly good heart — ever experience any imperfect impulse that would cause the will to move in the direction of sin? The answer is that nobody knows, including those who say, “Oh, it is free will.” That is not an explanation. It is a name for a mystery.

We don’t know. The Bible doesn’t explain how. Rob quotes Norman Geisler, who says, “The unmistakable logical conclusion for the extreme Calvinist [is that] both Lucifer and Adam sinned because God gave them the desire to sin.” Now I am not sure whether I qualify as Geisler’s “extreme Calvinist,” but I strongly suspect that I do.

At this point I am disagreeing with that description of me, and I am saying, “No, I am not driven to say God gave Lucifer his first desire to sin. That is an oversimplification of virtually everybody’s viewpoint. I do not know how Lucifer came to feel his first inclination to rebel against God.” - John Piper (DesiringDod.org)


Sad thing is Geisler's straw man argument.
 

civic

Well-known member
I like how you call it 'getting Boxed-In to a System of Theology'; I use their Box against them...

I say that God 'Meant' his Decree and his Providence for Good, while we mean it for Evil; but we both Meant it...
I tagged you in the other thread about Alford. He is dead wrong and I spelled it out. Let me know what you think. Thanks !
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
I tagged you in the other thread about Alford. He is dead wrong and I spelled it out. Let me know what you think. Thanks !
Thanks. The Lord hasn't gotten me to the point I can understand Greek a whole lot, even when it's spelled out to me; but I can read a Concordance...
 

TomFL

Well-known member
The line of Thinking I want to develop is, that to a Non Calvinist, God's involvement in the Commencement of any Sin must/has to be Synergistic; because they say that if this is the case, it's inescapable that God is Culpable as the Author of Sin. I'm sure that TomL would agree, saying that Soft Determinism has to be rounded up to Hard Determinism. Since it's true that God is involved in the Commencement of Sin, God is the Author of Sin if his Decree is Synergistic. We all know that God is not the Author of Sin, so God's Providence and Decree CANNOT be Synergistic. God's involvement in the Commencement of Sin is TRUE, so his Providence is Monergistically Sovereign...

Why does Soft Determinism always have to be rounded up? I think it's because they can't help but to understand everything Synergistically...
I would say compatibilism is just as deterministic as hard determinism for Calvinist themselves say so

Again if God is determining desires

like the desires of the eyes and the flesh and the pride of life we have a contradiction with scripture

1 John 2:16 —ESV
“For all that is in the world—the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride of life—is not from the Father but is from the world.”

soft determinism is a whole other subject
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
I would say compatibilism is just as deterministic as hard determinism for Calvinist themselves say so

Again if God is determining desires

like the desires of the eyes and the flesh and the pride of life we have a contradiction with scripture

1 John 2:16 —ESV
“For all that is in the world—the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride of life—is not from the Father but is from the world.”

soft determinism is a whole other subject
But that's not the only verse in the Bible. Everything that happened to Job was set off by God. All it takes is one example of God's involvement...
 

TomFL

Well-known member
But that's not the only verse in the Bible. Everything that happened to Job was set off by God. All it takes is one example of God's involvement...
Did God determine Job to sin ?

I have not seen that

I do not even see that as a valid example
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
No

Job did not sin

God did not determine Job to sin

Had he determine him he would have

I do not think this is a good example
Job 42:6; therefore I abhor myself and Repent in dust and ashes...

Job did Sin. All of this was because God allowed Satan to challenge Job's Righteousness; IE God's Involvement...
 
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