DesiringGod (John Piper) answers TomFL!

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TomFL

Guest
That's another subject, and was obviously a loaded question considering your follow up.

Job did sin, and he comes under Romans 3:23 as do the rest of mankind.

In fact, he was rebuked in the ending of Job, and repented.
Where do you see God determined him ?
 
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TomFL

Guest
That's another subject, and was obviously a loaded question considering your follow up.

Job did sin, and he comes under Romans 3:23 as do the rest of mankind.

In fact, he was rebuked in the ending of Job, and repented.
Again did God determine Job should sin

That is the point of this whole line of argumentation

That somehow Job is an example of God determining someone should sin
 
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TomFL

Guest
Job 42:6; therefore I abhor myself and Repent in dust and ashes...

Job did Sin. All of this was because God allowed Satan to challenge Job's Righteousness; IE God's Involvement...
It's not just involvement. God uses sinful people to accomplishment his purpose at times. The question is does he determine their sin

The issue is determination

What sin did God determine Job to commit ?
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
It's not just involvement. God uses sinful people to accomplishment his purpose at times. The question is does he determine their sin

The issue is determination

What sin did God determine Job to commit ?
God doesn't determine Sin, as it never entered the Mind and Heart of God to "CAUSE" Judah to Sin. God meant Judah's act for Good, and he meant what happened to Job for Good; the Devil meant it for Evil when he harmed Job, and Judah meant it for Evil when they offered their children as burnt sacrifices. God meant it all for Good even if God only meant it for the Good of his Justice that people receive punishment for Sin...
 

preacher4truth

Well-known member
God doesn't determine Sin, as it never entered the Mind and Heart of God to "CAUSE" Judah to Sin. God meant Judah's act for Good, and what happened to Job for Good; the Devil meant it for Evil when he harmed Job, and Judah meant it for Evil when they offered their children as burnt sacrifices. God meant it all for Good even if God only meant it for the Good of his Justice that people receive punishment for Sin...
Did God cause the Assyrians to sin?
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Did God cause the Assyrians to sin?
No; but God Decreed it and Providentially brought it all to pass. God meant to send the Assyrians against Israel for Good and not for Evil; the Assyrians meant it for Evil...

As a rule, that's how all this takes place; IE the 'Meaning' of the person is what matters. It won't be long from now before the Atheist's pet Objection will raise it's head...
 
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TomFL

Guest
God doesn't determine Sin, as it never entered the Mind and Heart of God to "CAUSE" Judah to Sin. God meant Judah's act for Good, and he meant what happened to Job for Good; the Devil meant it for Evil when he harmed Job, and Judah meant it for Evil when they offered their children as burnt sacrifices. God meant it all for Good even if God only meant it for the Good of his Justice that people receive punishment for Sin...
Well I agree with you

but those Calvinist quotes don't

that has been the point

Sketo's post has been a total misnomer as I deny God determines sin
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Well I agree with you

but those Calvinist quotes don't

that has been the point

Sketo's post has been a total misnomer as I deny God determines sin
No, I think they're doing well; I just try to say the same thing but in a different way. They do not believe that God's Decree is Synergisticly bound to the Will of Man like a tether. Arminius didn't even believe that...

They're Monergists...
 
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Sketo

Well-known member
An amazing exegetical breakdown of who caused the evil against Job...

 
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JDS

Well-known member
This is John Pipers direct answer to TomFL’s accusation against Calvinism...

We

At this point I am disagreeing with that description of me, and I am saying, “No, I am not driven to say God gave Lucifer his first desire to sin. That is an oversimplification of virtually everybody’s viewpoint. I do not know how Lucifer came to feel his first inclination to rebel against God.” - John Piper (DesiringDod.org)
We know why Lucifer sinned. It was because of his pride in his beauty.

We know why Adam sinned. It was to save his wife, Eve, whom he loved.

We are told these things in the scriptures.

You have to ask yourself, why was Lucifer in the garden of God in the first place? That is where God was. Why would God let a sinful creature in his garden where he abode. The fact is he kicked Adam out because he sinned. The logical conclusion and a reasonable conclusion is that he did not enter as a sinner. This is indeed what we are told and I will prove it from the scriptures later.
 

Sketo

Well-known member
We know why Lucifer sinned. It was because of his pride in his beauty.
How could a perfectly good being — with a perfectly good will and a perfectly good heart — ever experience any imperfect impulse that would cause the will to move in the direction of sin?
 

SovereignGrace

Well-known member
Did God cause the Assyrians to sin?

This is a good question. I'd say no in a kneejerk response, but He did stir up Pilgath-Pilnesser's spirit to attack the Jews. Could God have stirred him up and yet not cause him to sin? Again, a kneejerk response, I'd say yes. But I am open to learning and correction. Care to elaborate?
 
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TomFL

Guest
No, I think they're doing well; I just try to say the same thing but in a different way. They do not believe that God's Decree is Synergisticly bound to the Will of Man like a tether. Arminius didn't even believe that...

They're Monergists...
If by they you mean those in the quotes of course they are monergists they are are determinists. That is the point

BTW has anyone mentioned a tether

If God allow a measure of free will how is that a tether

Bottom line the idea God determines all of mans sin is just unbiblical

Are we to believe to be sovereign God must be the author of sin ?

I don't think so
 
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TomFL

Guest
God doesn't determine Sin, as it never entered the Mind and Heart of God to "CAUSE" Judah to Sin. God meant Judah's act for Good, and he meant what happened to Job for Good; the Devil meant it for Evil when he harmed Job, and Judah meant it for Evil when they offered their children as burnt sacrifices. God meant it all for Good even if God only meant it for the Good of his Justice that people receive punishment for Sin...
Again that God does not determine sin is my point

but read the quotes

If God merely foresaw human events, and did not also arrange and dispose of them at his pleasure, there might be room for agitating the question, how far his foreknowledge amounts to necessity; but since he foresees the things which are to happen, simply because he has decreed that they are so to happen, it is vain to debate about prescience, while it is clear that all events take place by his sovereign appointment.
Institutes of the Christian Religion. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)

…God is the only being who is ultimately self-determining, and is himself ultimately the disposer of all things, including all choices — however many or diverse other intervening causes are. On this definition, no human being has free will, at any time. Neither before or after the fall, or in heaven, are creatures ultimately self-determining. There are great measures of self-determination, as the Bible often shows, but never is man the ultimate or decisive cause of his preferences and choices. When man’s agency and God’s agency are compared, both are real, but God’s is decisive

Nothing that exists or occurs falls outside God’s ordaining will. Nothing, including no evil person or thing or event or deed. God’s foreordination is the ultimate reason why everything comes about, including the existence of all evil persons and things and the occurrence of any evil acts or events. And so it is not inappropriate to take God to be the creator, the sender, the permitter, and sometimes even the instigator of evil… Nothing — no evil thing or person or event or deed — falls outside God’s ordaining will. Nothing arises, exists, or endures independently of God’s will. So when even the worst of evils befall us, they do not ultimately come from anywhere other than God’s hand.

b Talbot, "All the Good That Is Ours in Christ", in Suffering and the Sovereignty of God, ed. John Piper and Justin Taylor,
 

JDS

Well-known member
How could a perfectly good being — with a perfectly good will and a perfectly good heart — ever experience any imperfect impulse that would cause the will to move in the direction of sin?
One of the ways of God is that he addresses one person who is manipulating another through the manipulated person. We have been given information in scriptures concerning the ways of Satan and the ways of God. Peter in Matt 16 is a good example. He was being manipulated by the devil and Jesus went right to the source of this wickedness and aimed his comments to Satan. This is true in both Eze 28 when he addressed him through Tyrus, and in Isa 14 when he addressed him through the king of Babylon in the context of the "burden of Babylon."
Following is what he said about him through Tyrus.

Eze 28"12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord God; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

God is not taking any blame for the deeds of this person. No being is created for the purpose of acting independently of his creator. But every creature is tested because he must of his own heart desire to please his creator. It is not a constant test. It is one test and then a sealing in his righteousness if the test comes out in favor of submission to God. One third of the angelic host fell with Lucifer. The two thirds are never tested again.

If Calvinists continues to hold on to the teaching that created beings do not have a will you are teaching a doctrine of the devil that is 180 degrees opposite of what the scriptures teach and you are presenting God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son, and the Holy Ghost in a way that will lead men away from the truth and you are to be blamed. I am telling you this to warn you,

Some of these things that God has said about this cherub has not yet come to pass, but all of them will.
 
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ReverendRV

Well-known member
If by they you mean those in the quotes of course they are monergists they are are determinists. That is the point

BTW has anyone mentioned a tether

If God allow a measure of free will how is that a tether

Bottom line the idea God determines all of mans sin is just unbiblical

Are we to believe to be sovereign God must be the author of sin ?

I don't think so
I mentioned the tether between God's Decree and Man's (d)ecree, because you say it's inescapable that God would be Culpable if God and Man Decree the same thing, and Man Sinned. In other words, I think you say there's a Synergistic Tether between God and Joseph's brothers when they both meant for Joseph to sent to Egypt, that infects God with Culpability for the brother's Evil...
 
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