DesiringGod (John Piper) answers TomFL!

Tercon

Well-known member
Sin comes to pass from us. God even meant Slavery for Good...

It's time to go 'Atheist Mode', on how all which comes to pass is Good because God Meant it for Good; did God mean Slavery for Good?
It's strange to watch someone trying to account for sin, when not even God accounts for it.
 
T

TomFL

Guest
Sin comes to pass from us. God even meant Slavery for Good...

It's time to go 'Atheist Mode', on how all which comes to pass is Good because God Meant it for Good; did God mean Slavery for Good?
From us yes

But is all sin for good ?
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
So every sin has a redemptive or good meaning behind it ?
God has Good Meaning for all which comes to pass. There was Redemptive Meaning regarding Joseph's brothers; but even if God only means that Sin is Punished even in the life of Charlie, it is Good for God to punish Sin. We may not always know the Good Meaning God has in all which Comes to pass, but we can count on it that God meant it for Good in some kind of Good way...
 
T

TomFL

Guest
God has Good Meaning for all which comes to pass. There was Redemptive Meaning regarding Joseph's brothers; but even if God only means that Sin is Punished even in the life of Charlie, it is Good for God to punish Sin. We may not always know the Good Meaning God has in all which Comes to pass, but we can count on it that God meant it for Good in some kind of Good way...
What does God meant it for good mean in reference to all sin ?

He brought it all about ?
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
What does God meant it for good mean in reference to all sin ?

He brought it all about ?
God's Meaning in all which he brings about is Good. I wrote a Gospel Tract about how God wanted to give his Son a Bride; but he could only do it in a way which involved Sin entering into the world. Maybe even you would like to read that one...
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Choose or refuse ~ by Reverend RV

Isaiah 62:5; For as a young man marries a virgin, so shall your sons marry you; and as the bridegroom rejoices over the brides virginity, so shall God rejoice over you.

In my discussions with Atheists, sometimes I come across one who genuinely wants to know a Christian’s answer to their objections. Their questions range from the simple to the complex; and sometimes the simple questions are those that need the complex answer. Bill the Atheist asked, “What is God’s real goal in creating Mankind?” Bill didn’t want the usual answer that those who already believe there is a God would give; answers like ‘The chief end of Man is to Glorify God and enjoy him always’. Bill objects that if this is the reason, then God could have made us in such a way that he would not eternally destroy us in Hell for our Sin. The ‘Shorter’ Catechism answer is correct, but Bill wanted a ‘lowest common denominator’ answer that would also satisfy his objection. I responded to his question by saying there could be more than one satisfactory answer, but I will give him my answer; God’s real goal in creating Mankind was to give his Son a bride.

There are several Theological Doctrines that come into play in answering the question; a complex answer to a ‘one liner’ question. One such Doctrine is the Immutability of God; he does not change. In eternity, God is a Trinity; the Son proceeds from the Father, and the Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father and the Son. Since this is described as happening in eternity, it tests the Mind to think of a time when the three are not one. Since God doesn’t change, then he cannot produce a bride from his Essence like God produced a Son from his Essence; this speaks of the Doctrine of Consubstantiality. A bride must then be created; thus she is the weaker vessel. ~ This is where the Doctrine of Gods Incommunicable and Communicable Attributes come into play. A creature cannot have all of Gods Attributes or the creature would be God. For instance, God is said to be ‘from everlasting to everlasting’; a creature can only be from creation to everlasting. But a creature can possess Gods Communicable Attributes, for instance; ‘Cogito ergo sum’: which means ‘I think, therefore I am’. The Bible says that Man was created a little lower than the Angels but through a relationship with God, our station in Life is made higher than that of the Angels; making us closer to God. Man will forever be less than Divine, but through a marital relationship with God’s Son; ‘the two become one’. This is how God’s Son gets a bride…

Now as to why this could not be achieved apart from the Fall of Adam, a bride must be able to choose her Groom, or the relationship is not a true relationship. Mankind was created Good, and with a freedom of Will. God gave Man dominion in the world and this commission makes it necessary that he is free to exercise that dominion. There is a downfall when it comes to freedom of the Will; Man can choose to Sin. ~ Because of his Pride, Lucifer fell into Sin even in the pure environment of Heaven; and remember that Man was made weaker than the Angels. There comes a time we need to ask, ‘Could God have had a relationship with a Mankind that could not freely choose him without an option to resist?’ Would it be worth it for God to force himself on that kind of humanity (something that would cause God to Sin)? ~ Have you ever had too much Pride, or have you ever forced yourself on anther person? Then go to God’s Risen Son Jesus Christ through Faith, for forgiveness of your Sins and you will become a pure virgin by being ‘born again’; fit for marriage. When it comes to your Righteousness, God will rejoice over you! Repent of your Sins and join a Bible believing Church. ~ You have to admit, you’ve previously resisted his advances and he hasn’t forced himself on you yet; perhaps your Will is bound, just the other way around? Exercise your dominion; choose or refuse…

Matthew 22:1; Jesus spoke to them, saying: The Kingdom of Heaven is like a King who prepared a wedding banquet for his Son.
 
T

TomFL

Guest
God's Meaning in all which he brings about is Good. I wrote a Gospel Tract about how God wanted to give his Son a Bride; but he could only do it in a way which involved Sin entering into the world. Maybe even you would like to read that one...
but is he bringing about every sin ?

I will read later as time permits
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
but is he bringing about every sin ?

I will read later as time permits
Bringing about Sin would mean he's Causing/Authoring Sin...

God does not Cause Sin in any conceivable Way, but God Decrees all which comes to pass for the Good. That Good meaning always comes to pass, just like our Evil Meaning always comes to pass. Joseph's brother's Evil Meaning came to pass that one day they sold Joseph. God's Good Meaning came to pass when Joseph became Prime Minister and Saved the Seventy, when God delivered Israel from Egypt, when Jesus was born because he wouldn't exist if Joseph were not sold, when Jesus fed 5,000 people; and when Charlie and TomL got Saved...

Among many other untold Good things God Meant from that one day...

God Meant it for so much Good that if you were there that one day, you might of whispered into Judah's ear "Yeah, selling Joseph is a 'Good' idea'...
 
Last edited:
T

TomFL

Guest
Bringing about Sin would mean he's Causing/Authoring Sin...

God does not Cause Sin in any conceivable Way, but God Decrees all which comes to pass for the Good. That Good meaning always comes to pass, just like our Evil Meaning always comes to pass. Joseph's brother's Evil Meaning came to pass that one day they sold Joseph. God's Good Meaning came to pass when Joseph became Prime Minister and Saved the Seventy, when God delivered Israel from Egypt, when Jesus was born because he wouldn't exist if Joseph were not sold, when Jesus fed 5,000 people; and when Charlie and TomL got Saved...

Among many other untold Good things God Meant from that one day...

God Meant it for so much Good that if you were there that one day, you might of whispered into Judah's ear "Yeah, selling Joseph is a 'Good' idea'...
Define decrees

Is it always causal or may it be permissive
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Define decrees

Is it always causal or may it be permissive
God's Decreetive Will and his Permissive Will? I haven't thought about those in a while but they were some of the first things I was taught in my Reformed Baptist Church. I think I would have to update myself on them but basically they are both the Decree of God; but one is more aggressive and the other is more Passive Aggressive. Not Passive Aggressive as we understand the term; God's Permissive Will is as firmly desired as his Determinative Will but is also more Lax. If you believe in that kind of Decree, you should be a Compatibalist...

Before I say more on it, honestly I'd need refreshing on the topic. That topic may be the one you need to focus on with Calvinists, it could be the difference maker; maybe they forget about his permissiveness from time to time?
 
Last edited:
T

TomFL

Guest
God's Decreetive Will and his Permissive Will? I haven't thought about those in a while but they were some of the first things I was taught in my Reformed Baptist Church. I think I would have to update myself on them but basically they are both the Decree of God; but one is more aggressive and the other is more Passive Aggressive. Not Passive Aggressive as we understand the term; God's Permissive Will is as firmly desired as his Determinative Will but is also more Lax. If you believe in that kind of Decree, you should be a Compatibalist...

Before I say more on it, honestly I'd need refreshing on the topic. That topic may be the one you need to focus on with Calvinists, it could be the difference maker; maybe they forget about his permissiveness from time to time?
Ok refresh at your will
 
Top