Despite having faith in Christ

[Nic]

Despite having faith in Christ, list what one Catholic belief will send a Catholic to hell?

1) Name only one per post.

2) Remember that belief must condemn a Catholic to hell.

3) Please remember to include an explanation as to why you believe your comment.

Thanks.

 

[PeanutGallery]

Looking unto RCC's other 'sinless mediator and advocate' to advise the scriptural 'sinless mediator and advocate'.

Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

 

[romishpopishorganist]

Looking unto RCC's other 'sinless mediator and advocate' to advise the scriptural 'sinless mediator and advocate'.

Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

It looks like you are saying that belief that Mary is a sinless mediator will send Catholics to Hell because Scripture teaches that there is but one mediator between God and man and that is Christ.

And--the truth is, I as a Catholic could agree with that----------------if----------------the idea that Mary is a sinless advocate were what Protestants thought it was. But Protestants do not understand what is being said and what is not being said when Catholics say that Mary is a sinless advocate--which is why they think the doctrine conflicts with Scripture.

I will try and flush out the doctrine in order to bring clarity.

Scripture teaches that there is but one sinless advocate between God the FATHER and man, and this is Christ. Note that Christ is a sinless advocate between God the Father and man---and that this is by NATURE. It is the NATURE of Christ as the only Son of the Father by which he intercedes on behalf of man to the Father. Christ saves us because Christ is sinless by nature, God by nature, but through the Incarnation, man by nature.

Mary is also a sinless advocate between man and God. However, there are some important differences between Mary and Christ and the nature of her mediation and advocacy.

1) Mary is not sinless by nature, she is sinless through Grace. Mary is sinless because she is redeemed, not because she is God, not because she is unredeemed, and therefore certainly not through her nature. Mary like all of us comes under condemnation. Mary like all of us could not be who she is unless she has been redeemed.

2) Mary does not intercede before the throne of the Father. Only Christ can do that. Mary intercedes before the throne of Christ.

3) Piggybacking on 2: the advocacy and intercession that Mary exercises before the throne of Christ is not something different then what ALL Christians do. All of us are able to intercede before the throne of Christ. That is what it means to be members of the Body of Christ. Note that the Church as a whole is sinless. Individual members of the Church will be sinless one day; the day they stand before God. There is no sin in heaven. What Mary has now is something all Christians will one day have. That is what redemption is: sinlessness.

4) Piggybacking on 3: The only difference between Mary and individual Christians is in the manner in which she was redeemed. Mary was redeemed more perfectly than any other Christian. This was because of the vocation God called her to. He equipped her with the necessary graces to fulfill that calling.

5) The means by which Mary intercedes and advocates is the same means by which all Christians advocate and intercede: God's Grace. Mary can intercede because the merits of redemption are within her. The intercession she exercises is that of Christ. Mary has no intercessory power apart from Christ. This is the same for all Christians.

6) The difference between Mary's intercession and that of individual Christians is only that her intercession is more perfect; but this is only because she is more perfectly redeemed. It is important to note however, that Mary does not do anything that individual Christians cannot do. Mary only does it more perfectly--and only because she is more perfectly redeemed.

When Scripture teaches that there is one mediator between God and man, Scripture has in mind Christ who is unredeemed, sinless by nature, God by nature, man through adoption, and intercession before God the Father and man. When Catholics teach that Mary is an advocate and intercessor, Catholics do not have in mind what the Scriptures have in mind with regard to Christ and his intercession. Catholics have in mind what Scripture teaches that all Christians do--except that Mary does it more perfectly.

Thus, Mary as sinless mediator does NOT conflict with what Scripture teaches about the intercession of Christ. If it did, then no Christian would be able to pray for and intercede.

 

[mica]

...

Thus, Mary as sinless mediator does NOT conflict with what Scripture teaches about the intercession of Christ. If it did, then no Christian would be able to pray for and intercede.

yes, it does. She is not sinless and she is dead.

 

[PeanutGallery]

It looks like you are saying that belief that Mary is a sinless mediator will send Catholics to Hell because Scripture teaches that there is but one mediator between God and man and that is Christ.

Scripture does state that Jesus is the sinless mediator and advocate, but makes no such statements for any other.

2Cor 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
1Pet 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
1John 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
1Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

And--the truth is, I as a Catholic could agree with that----------------if----------------the idea that Mary is a sinless advocate were what Protestants thought it was. But Protestants do not understand what is being said ...

It's not about what RCC or Protestants think or understand; it's about what scripture states.

 

[Johan]

Despite having faith in Christ, list what one Catholic belief will send a Catholic to hell?

I want to begin by clarifying that I am not comfortable with the idea that a particular belief "sends" someone to hell. Faith is not some kind of accomplishment or work that is "rewarded" with salvation. To believe in Christ is to trust Him and His promises. We are saved by grace through faith rather than by correct doctrine or a particular confession. It is Christ, rather than our faith per se, who saves us. Now, Paul condemned a particular tendency in the early church, namely legalism. He even went so far as to claim that Simon Peter "stood condemned" (Gal. 2:11) for (temporarily) embracing this ideology. He basically told Peter that if he continued in that error, things would not end well. Legalism, in this context, means to place the Law and the Gospel side by side, claiming that keeping the Law is necessary for salvation. In other words, what Christ accomplished on the cross is insufficient for our salvation. The Catholic practice of doing so was noted by Luther in his commentary on the Epistle to the Galatians (emphasis in bold mine):

Paul here explains his motive for going up to Jerusalem. He did not go to Jerusalem to be instructed or confirmed in his Gospel by the other apostles. He went to Jerusalem in order to preserve the true Gospel for the Galatian churches and for all the churches of the Gentiles.​

​

When Paul speaks of the truth of the Gospel he implies by contrast a false gospel. The false apostles also had a gospel, but it was an untrue gospel. "In holding out against them," says Paul, "I conserved the truth of the pure Gospel."​

​

Now the true Gospel has it that we are justified by faith alone, without the deeds of the Law. The false gospel has it that we are justified by faith, but not without the deeds of the Law. The false apostles preached a conditional gospel.​

​

So do the papists. They admit that faith is the foundation of salvation. But they add the conditional clause that faith can save only when it is furnished with good works. This is wrong. The true Gospel declares that good works are the embellishment of faith, but that faith itself is the gift and work of God in our hearts. Faith is able to justify, because it apprehends Christ, the Redeemer.​

​

Human reason can think only in terms of the Law. It mumbles: "This I have done, this I have not done." But faith looks to Jesus Christ, the Son of God, given into death for the sins of the whole world. To turn one's eyes away from Jesus means to turn them to the Law.​

Was this an unfair appraisal of Catholic soteriology? Hardly. We find the same erroneous teaching in the official Catholic catechism:

The Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments. (Catechism of the Catholic Church, §2068)​

To begin with, this paragraph says that salvation is attained (just like a student may attain graduation if he/she makes the sufficient effort) rather than obtained by Christ. But more seriously, it states that we are only partly saved through faith. We also have to observe the commandments of the (by the Catholic church redacted) Decalogue. That is a false gospel. And anyone who clings to a false gospel will not be saved.

 

[romishpopishorganist]

Scripture does state that Jesus is the sinless mediator and advocate, but makes no such statements for any other.

2Cor 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
1Pet 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
1John 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
1Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

I explained all of this. Nothing of what you posted contradicts what I said. I did not say that Mary advocates before the Father. I said she advocates, as we all do before the throne of Christ. I made it painfully clear that Jesus is the only one who can advocate before man and the Father.

Can you please read what I write before you respond next time?

It's not about what RCC or Protestants think or understand; it's about what scripture states.

Sigh...again, can you please read what I write before you respond?

What I was explaining was what Catholics mean when they talk about the intercession of Mary--and for that matter we can include the saints in this. Furthermore I explained why it does NOT conflict with Scripture to talk about the intercession of Mary and the saints.

Really, we will have a more productive discussion if you would actually read what I write before you respond.

 

[romishpopishorganist]

yes, it does. She is not sinless and she is dead.

Where does Scripture teach that the bonds of love that knit us together in life unravel with death? Where does Scripture teach that death separates one from the body of Christ?

 

[PeanutGallery]

... I did not say that Mary advocates before the Father. ...

Scripture please which states Mary, while in heaven, advocates for anyone before God.

... Furthermore I explained why it does NOT conflict with Scripture to talk about the intercession of Mary and the saints.

I'm not asking for NON-conflicting explanations; I'm asking for scripture.

 

[romishpopishorganist]

Scripture please which states Mary, while in heaven, advocates for anyone before God.

It is implied in the what the Scriptures DO teach. The Scriptures teach that death does not separate one from the Body of Christ. Where do the Scriptures teach that? When the Scriptures teach that nothing separates us from Christ. If Christ is the head of the Body, if the Body is all believers, and if Christ is always in union with all believes, it logically follows that those who have died are still united with all believers and can still intercede for them--since they are still part of the body and united to Christ. Christ is united with all believers. Therefore, all believers, whether dead or alive are united with all believers---since they are united with Christ, even in death.

I'm not asking for NON-conflicting explanations; I'm asking for scripture.

Let me get this straight: it is not good enough for me to show that our teaching does not conflict with the Scriptures?

 

[PeanutGallery]

It is implied in the what the Scriptures DO teach. The Scriptures teach that death does not separate one from the Body of Christ. Where do the Scriptures teach that? When the Scriptures teach that nothing separates us from Christ. If Christ is the head of the Body, if the Body is all believers, and if Christ is always in union with all believes, it logically follows that those who have died are still united with all believers and can still intercede for them--since they are still part of the body and united to Christ. Christ is united with all believers. Therefore, all believers, whether dead or alive are united with all believers---since they are united with Christ, even in death.

The contention is praying to anyone in heaven, other than praying to God, for mediation and advocacy. Scripture specifically states we have one 'sinless mediator, advocate".

 

[mica]

mica said:
yes, it does. She is not sinless and she is dead.

Where does Scripture teach that the bonds of love that knit us together in life unravel with death?

have you searched scripture for it?

did you know Mary personally when she was alive on earth?

Where does Scripture teach that death separates one from the body of Christ?

do you have scripture that teaches that those who are not part of the body of Christ while alive on this earth will then join with the body of Christ when they die?

 

[pilgrim]

The contention is praying to anyone in heaven, other than praying to God, for mediation and advocacy. Scripture specifically states we have one 'sinless mediator, advocate".

Scripture upholds intercessory prayer. That is what the saints do. That is what we do for those who ask us to pray for them.

 

[mica]

It is implied in the what the Scriptures DO teach. The Scriptures teach that death does not separate one from the Body of Christ. Where do the Scriptures teach that? When the Scriptures teach that nothing separates us from Christ. If Christ is the head of the Body, if the Body is all believers, and if Christ is always in union with all believes, it logically follows that those who have died are still united with all believers and can still intercede for them--since they are still part of the body and united to Christ. Christ is united with all believers. Therefore, all believers, whether dead or alive are united with all believers---since they are united with Christ, even in death.

that speaks of those who are already part of the body of Christ.

where does scripture say that a believer needs another believer to intercede for them with Christ? does your hand tell your head to buy better shoes so that your feet won't hurt so much? do your ears tell your head that you need to buy sunglasses for your eyes?

does the RCC teach you that you need someone to intercede for you with Christ?

Let me get this straight: it is not good enough for me to show that our teaching does not conflict with the Scriptures?

you haven't done that yet.

 

[PeanutGallery]

Scripture upholds intercessory prayer. That is what the saints do. That is what we do for those who ask us to pray for them.

Neither scripture, Jesus nor his apostles taught praying to anyone in heaven other than to God.
Php 4:6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.

 

[balshan]

Thank you.
Some comments:
A) In RC/EO world you and I are also mediators. But our role as mediators would be in a different sense and magnitude than that of Christ.
B) Mary role as mediator is also not expressed in the same sense as Christ.
C) Mary's alleged sinlessness appears to have been incubated to combat heresies that would come against Christ as being without sin. So it's a Christological statement / doctrine that has grown in collateral damage (imo) both inside and outside of Catholicism.

That's all I'll say here, thanks again for your reply. If a RC responds please be sure to address your concerns with them.

Why did you ever leave the RCC?

 

[romishpopishorganist]

that speaks of those who are already part of the body of Christ.

Aren't those in heaven already part of the Body of Christ?

where does scripture say that a believer needs another believer to intercede for them with Christ? does your hand tell your head to buy better shoes so that your feet won't hurt so much? do your ears tell your head that you need to buy sunglasses for your eyes?

I already answered that. It is implied when Scripture says that believers are part of the Body of Christ. The point of being part of the body is that we all share the life of the body. The hand may not tell my head to buy better shoes, but when my feet hurt, my whole body is miserable. Each organ has distinct functions within the body, but all organs share the life of the body.

does the RCC teach you that you need someone to intercede for you with Christ?

It isn't a question of "need." Again you Protestant fundamentalists with you dog gone zero sum one dimensional theology.

Catholics do not break everything down into essential vs. non-essential. Relationships aren't binary. Love does not work that way.

 

[romishpopishorganist]

have you searched scripture for it?

Yes. I don't find one verse that says that the bonds that unite us unravel with death. That is why I am asking you to show me where it says that.

did you know Mary personally when she was alive on earth?

I know Mary through my union with the head of the Body, namely Christ. Because Mary is part of the body, and because Christ unites the body as its head, I know all believers through my union Christ because in Christ all believers are united.

do you have scripture that teaches that those who are not part of the body of Christ while alive on this earth will then join with the body of Christ when they die?

No I do not have the Scripture for that. But where did you get the idea that I am saying non-believers are part of the body of Christ?

If one is a non-believer in this life and fails to come to Christ, they do not become part of the body at death.

 

[balshan]

Aren't those in heaven already part of the Body of Christ?


I already answered that. It is implied when Scripture says that believers are part of the Body of Christ. The point of being part of the body is that we all share the life of the body. The hand may not tell my head to buy better shoes, but when my feet hurt, my whole body is miserable. Each organ has distinct functions within the body, but all organs share the life of the body.


It isn't a question of "need." Again you Protestant fundamentalists with you dog gone zero sum one dimensional theology.

Catholics do not break everything down into essential vs. non-essential. Relationships aren't binary. Love does not work that way.

Not if they have gone somewhere else. Those will never be part of the body and we have no idea who goes where because we are not God. My theology is not one dimensional, God is never one dimensional that is more the problem for wolves.

Yes we have all seen RCC concept of love throughout the centuries and recently that love for its victims was there for all to see. I reject the RCC concept of love, it is more like hate.

 

[mica]

mica said:

that speaks of those who are already part of the body of Christ.

Aren't those in heaven already part of the Body of Christ?

where did your post (that i replied to) mention heaven?

I already answered that. It is implied when Scripture says that believers are part of the Body of Christ.

no, you didn't. where does the scripture saying that actually imply that believers need someone to intercede for them with Christ? post the verse(s) and point out what in it / them implies what you say it does.

The point of being part of the body is that we all share the life of the body. The hand may not tell my head to buy better shoes, but when my feet hurt, my whole body is miserable. Each organ has distinct functions within the body, but all organs share the life of the body.

when your feet hurt, the body of Christ knows nothing about that hurt.

you speak of your body, not His body.

It isn't a question of "need." Again you Protestant fundamentalists with you dog gone zero sum one dimensional theology.

I'm not a protestant so post that to someone who is...

catholics have a 1 dimensional theology - it begins and ends with what the RCC teaches.

Catholics do not break everything down into essential vs. non-essential. Relationships aren't binary. Love does not work that way.

I'm not surprised since they know little of what God says is essential and non essential. However, from what I know of catholics (and i was one) and those who post here, what the RCC says / teaches is essential, but what God's word says / teaches is not.