Did God causally determine Cain's offering

TomFL

Well-known member
Genesis 4 (KJV 1900)
4 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD. 2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground. 3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD. 4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering: 5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell. 6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? 7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door.
'
Was God being duplicitous in suggesting Cain could be accepted when He know Cain or his sacrifice was determined to not be accepted ?
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Genesis 4 (KJV 1900)
4 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD. 2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground. 3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD. 4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering: 5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell. 6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? 7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door.
'
Was God being duplicitous in suggesting Cain could be accepted when He know Cain or his sacrifice was determined to not be accepted ?
Yes God knew cain couldnt do well, and acceptance with God comes through being accepted in the beloved Eph 1:6-7

6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 7 in whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Yes God knew cain couldnt do well, and acceptance with God comes through being accepted in the beloved Eph 1:6-7

6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 7 in whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
The question had to do with determination

Foreknowledge is not determination



Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? 7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door.
'
Was God being duplicitous in suggesting Cain could be accepted when He know Cain or his sacrifice was determined to not be accepted ?
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
The question had to do with determination

Foreknowledge is not determination



Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? 7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door.
'
Was God being duplicitous in suggesting Cain could be accepted when He know Cain or his sacrifice was determined to not be accepted ?
Well first of all God predetermines all things. So whatever God said, and whatever cain did or did not do, was predetermined, and God is above reproach and Holy in any scenario your imagination comes up with !
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Well first of all God predetermines all things. So whatever God said, and whatever cain did or did not do, was predetermined, and God is above reproach and Holy in any scenario your imagination comes up with !
So now answer the question


Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? 7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door.
'
Was God being duplicitous in suggesting Cain could be accepted when He know Cain or his sacrifice was determined to not be accepted ?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
So now answer the question


Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? 7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door.
'
Was God being duplicitous in suggesting Cain could be accepted when He know Cain or his sacrifice was determined to not be accepted ?

Of course not.
Why would you think it was an indication of being "duplicitous"?
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Of course not.
Why would you think it was an indication of being "duplicitous"?
Did you read what was stated

Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? 7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door.
'
Was God being duplicitous in suggesting Cain could be accepted when He know Cain or his sacrifice was determined to not be accepted ?

God was suggesting he could do right when God was preventing him from doing right
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Did you read what was stated

<sigh>
Why must you constantly be so insulting?
YES, I "read what was stated".


Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? 7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door.
'
Was God being duplicitous in suggesting Cain could be accepted when He know Cain or his sacrifice was determined to not be accepted ?

And I answered you.
NO, I don't see anything "duplicitous" about that.
I'm sorry you don't like my answer, but if you don't want to hear someone's answer, don't ask them.
Sheesh!

And since you aren't able to give a reason why it WOULD be "duplicitious", then there is no reason for me to think so either, is there?

God was suggesting he could do right when God was preventing him from doing right

No, he was NOT "suggesting" any such thing.

Please show me the word "could" in that verse.
I don't see it.
You are simply ASSUMING the concept of "ability".
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
So now answer the question


Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? 7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door.
'
Was God being duplicitous in suggesting Cain could be accepted when He know Cain or his sacrifice was determined to not be accepted ?
No, I answered that, God was not being duplicitous. If you would have read my response I stated:

Well first of all God predetermines all things. So whatever God said, and whatever cain did or did not do, was predetermined, and God is above reproach and Holy in any scenario your imagination comes up with !
 

TomFL

Well-known member
<sigh>
Why must you constantly be so insulting?
YES, I "read what was stated".




And I answered you.
NO, I don't see anything "duplicitous" about that.
I'm sorry you don't like my answer, but if you don't want to hear someone's answer, don't ask them.
Sheesh!

And since you aren't able to give a reason why it WOULD be "duplicitious", then there is no reason for me to think so either, is there?



No, he was NOT "suggesting" any such thing.

Please show me the word "could" in that verse.
I don't see it.
You are simply ASSUMING the concept of "ability".

I am assuming nothing
You can't see God was holding out a false prospect for him ?
 

TomFL

Well-known member
No, I answered that, God was not being duplicitous. If you would have read my response I stated:

Well first of all God predetermines all things. So whatever God said, and whatever cain did or did not do, was predetermined, and God is above reproach and Holy in any scenario your imagination comes up with !
God is above reproach but your theology is not
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
So now answer the question


Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? 7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door.
'
Was God being duplicitous in suggesting Cain could be accepted when He know Cain or his sacrifice was determined to not be accepted ?
In fact I see you being like the man in Rom 9:19-22

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
 

TomFL

Well-known member
In fact I see you being like the man in Rom 9:19-22

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Out of context citation

Paul's interlocutor is a hardened Jew who God is not going to use for an ignoble purpose

Not someone who God determined from birth to be a vessel of wrath


not
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Out of context citation

Paul's interlocutor is a hardened Jew who God is not going to use for an ignoble purpose

Not someone who God determined from birth to be a vessel of wrath


not
No its not, either way you trying to find fault with God if He has indeed predetermined all things , the principle of the matter is the same !
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
So you imagine it just to blame someone for what you have done ?

That's an oversimplification.

It is just to blame someone for what THEY have done.

Joseph's brothers sold Joseph into slavery in Egypt.
That's what THEY did. So it is just to blame them.
Even though God determined it.

Assyria attacked Israel in Isa. 10:5ff
That's what THEY did. So it is just to blame them.
Even though God determined it.

The Romans and the Jews murdered Jesus on the cross.
That's what THEY did. So it is just to blame them.
Even though God determined it.

Pharaoh hardened his heart and would not let the people go.
That's what he did. So it is just to blame him.
Even though God determined it.
 
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TomFL

Well-known member
That's an oversimplification.

It is just to blame someone for what THEY have done.

Joseph's brothers sold Joseph into slavery in Egypt.
That's what THEY did. So it is just to blame them.
Even though God determined it.

Assyria attacked Israel in Isa. 10:5ff
That's what THEY did. So it is just to blame them.
Even though God determined it.

The Romans and the Jews murdered Jesus on the cross.
That's what THEY did. So it is just to blame them.
Even though God determined it.

Pharaoh hardened his heart and would not let the people go.
That's what he did. So it is just to blame him.
Even though God determined it.

Did God put the desire in their heart ?

Rather he used it

again I ask

It is just to blame someone for what you have done or caused to be done ?

.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Did God put the desire in their heart ?

You tell me.

You don't seem to be able to offer any actual assertions.
All you do is ask questions, so that when we tell you the truth, you just tell us how "wrong" we are.
This game gets old after awhile, Tom...

Rather he used it

again I ask

<sigh>
You can ask ten million times, the answer isn't going to change.
Especially when you don't offer any compelling arguments FOR it to change.


It is just to blame someone for what you have done or caused to be done ?.

If they did it willingly, then of COURSE it's just!

And if you ask me again, I'll give you the same answer again.


"Insanity - Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results."
 

TomFL

Well-known member
You tell me.

You don't seem to be able to offer any actual assertions.
All you do is ask questions, so that when we tell you the truth, you just tell us how "wrong" we are.
This game gets old after awhile, Tom...



<sigh>
You can ask ten million times, the answer isn't going to change.
Especially when you don't offer any compelling arguments FOR it to change.




If they did it willingly, then of COURSE it's just!

And if you ask me again, I'll give you the same answer again.


"Insanity - Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results."
How can they have done it willingly if it was determined for them

before they were ever born without any consideration of what they might do in a particular circumstance ?
 
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