Did God causally determine Cain's offering

TomFL

Well-known member
If we are affected by the fall, and so bound by sin, incapable of choosing anything but sin, then how can we act like we are unaffected by the fall, and somehow choose righteousness? The Bible is clear that in our sin, our righteousness is as filthy rags, the same filthy rags worn by the unrighteous sinner. In other words, there is no difference.

Some say that God looked forward in time, saw those who would be righteous, and chose them, except that would mean that these people were unaffected by the fall. God is choosing them to tie up loose ends, and take the credit, right? Yet you just said that man is affected by the fall. You can't have it both ways. Either God chose man, and because God chose them they got saved, or man chose righteousness, and because man chose righteousness, they walked into heaven. (That is pelagianism, for if they are truly righteous, then they have no sin, and are unaffected by the fall.) There is no middle ground here. Jesus made that quite clear, once again, in His answer to the disciples to the question of "Who then can be saved?" "With man, this is impossible..." So, how do you squeeze in possible into that statement? It is unrelated to the second part of Jesus statement, because it is separated by a but. "but with God, all things are possible." So...God can save man, but man cannot save himself, whether by choice, or by action. If God chose, then you can be saved. (Obviously, I say, you will be saved, since God is all in all, and there is nothing that can stand between Him and His will.)

So, how can you reconcile what you say about free will, with what Jesus said?
Show me a verse which states man is unable to confess his sins

Show me a verse which says man is unable to accept God's offer of help

Show me a verse which actually states no man can understand or believe the gospel unless regenerated

of course salvation is impossible for man God must save. But that he cannot save himself does not mean he cannot

believe either'. That is just an assumption of your theology
 

armylngst

Well-known member
Show me a verse which states man is unable to confess his sins

Show me a verse which says man is unable to accept God's offer of help

Show me a verse which actually states no man can understand or believe the gospel unless regenerated

of course salvation is impossible for man God must save. But that he cannot save himself does not mean he cannot

believe either'. That is just an assumption of your theology
Okay, let's reason together and deal with this logically. In logic, what you asked for is impossible, and quit irrational of you. I have no burden of proof, as the burden of proof lies solely on you, as you assert the positive. In logic, one can not make a negative assertion, which you are asking me to defend. So let's get this right:
1. Show me a verse which states that every person who is a sinner is able to repent. (Consider Esau, and the book of Hebrews) [Considering to confess means to agree with, you're request is meaningless. Mine, however, packs a punch. Show a verse proving the positive assertion that any man can repent.]
2. Show a verse which states that God offers help, and that that is defined as salvation, and that man accepts that. (Crying out "What must I do to be saved" is not exactly the same thing, especially when the first word in the answer is not accept.)
3. Show me a verse that says that the reason that Jesus spoke in parables was so that the people who were spiritually dead, may understand exactly what Jesus was spiritually teaching.

Salvation is impossible for man, and since belief is the bedrock of salvation (as Paul told the jailer), then that must also mean man cannot believe on his own either. It seems pretty clear, without assuming anything. If one fully believes in Jesus, then there is only one thing they will do. If someone does not get saved, then they truly don't believe. Belief is always followed by action. A man dealing with Jesus knew this, so followed his saying he believes with "help me with my unbelief".
 

Sketo

Well-known member
Show me a verse which actually states no man can understand or believe the gospel unless regenerated
The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. - 1 Corinthians 2:14
of course salvation is impossible for man God must save.
But you don’t really believe this. because in your understanding man is “saved” by his own doing!

For by grace you have been saved through “your own doing”.
And this is not your own doing;
it is the gift of God,
not a result of works,
so that no one may boast. - Ephesians 2:8-9


Click here How To Turn Faith Into A Work

But that he cannot save himself does not mean he cannot believe either'.
You assume natural man can believe over and against Paul’s clear teaching...

The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. - 1 Corinthians 2:14
That is just an assumption of your theology
You mean Paul’s theology! He wrote 1 Cor 2:14!
 

TomFL

Well-known member
The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. - 1 Corinthians 2:14

But you don’t really believe this. because in your understanding man is “saved” by his own doing!

For by grace you have been saved through “your own doing”.
And this is not your own doing;
it is the gift of God,
not a result of works,
so that no one may boast. - Ephesians 2:8-9


Click here How To Turn Faith Into A Work


You assume natural man can believe over and against Paul’s clear teaching...

The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. - 1 Corinthians 2:14

You mean Paul’s theology! He wrote 1 Cor 2:14!
You are simply repeating your self while you ignore the arguments seen here

(1) Why the Calvinist understanding of 1Cor 2:14 makes no sense | CARM Forums

(1) Catch 22 Calvinist style | CARM Forums

Regeneration is not the answer to the Calvinist catch 22 | CARM Forums

your single verse interpretation is contrary to over 20 verses supplied in those op
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
If we are affected by the fall, and so bound by sin, incapable of choosing anything but sin, then how can we act like we are unaffected by the fall, and somehow choose righteousness? The Bible is clear that in our sin, our righteousness is as filthy rags, the same filthy rags worn by the unrighteous sinner. In other words, there is no difference.

Some say that God looked forward in time, saw those who would be righteous, and chose them, except that would mean that these people were unaffected by the fall. God is choosing them to tie up loose ends, and take the credit, right? Yet you just said that man is affected by the fall. You can't have it both ways. Either God chose man, and because God chose them they got saved, or man chose righteousness, and because man chose righteousness, they walked into heaven. (That is pelagianism, for if they are truly righteous, then they have no sin, and are unaffected by the fall.) There is no middle ground here. Jesus made that quite clear, once again, in His answer to the disciples to the question of "Who then can be saved?" "With man, this is impossible..." So, how do you squeeze in possible into that statement? It is unrelated to the second part of Jesus statement, because it is separated by a but. "but with God, all things are possible." So...God can save man, but man cannot save himself, whether by choice, or by action. If God chose, then you can be saved. (Obviously, I say, you will be saved, since God is all in all, and there is nothing that can stand between Him and His will.)

So, how can you reconcile what you say about free will, with what Jesus said?
Amen, men by nature are servants of sin Rom 6 17,20

But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.


For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

Naturally we are in the prison of unbelief Rom 11 32

. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

The word concluded sygkleiō is interesting, it means:

  1. shut up together, enclose
    1. of a shoal of fishes in a net
  2. to shut up on all sides, shut up completely
to shup up on all sides, shut up completely; τινα εἰς τινα or τί, so to deliver one up to the power of a person or thing that he is completely shut in, as it were, without means of escape: τινα εἰς ἀπείθειαν, Romans 11:32

We are imprisoned in unbelief, by God !

For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may have mercy on all. CSB

The only escape is when through Gods Mercy through regeneration and renewing of the Spirit Titus 3;5

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

The saving here is from the power of sin by the Spirit in Christs behalf !
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Show me a verse which states man is unable to confess his sins

Show me a verse which says man is unable to accept God's offer of help

Show me a verse which actually states no man can understand or believe the gospel unless regenerated

of course salvation is impossible for man God must save. But that he cannot save himself does not mean he cannot

believe either'. That is just an assumption of your theology
1 Cor 2 14 The Natural man cannot receive or understand the things of God. The Only way is for him to be made Spiritual, and that comes about by the New Birth. 1 Cor 2 14 destroys all confidence in the flesh, thats why people try to get rid of it, or desperately explain it away. 1 Cor 2 14-15


But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

The word spiritual means:

one who is filled with and governed by the Spirit of God:

The natural man is void of the Spirit of God.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Tom,

You keep "challenging" us to "show [you] a verse" to convince you that Calvinism is true.
I can't speak for anyone else, but as for me, I'm not the least bit interested in "convincing" you of anything. You can be saved remaining an Arminian. I personally don't care what you believe, especially when you summarily reject anything we say.

However, your posts on this board suggest that it is YOU who is trying to convince US that Calvinism is false, and that your theology is true. Maybe that's not what you're trying to do, and if you tell me you're not trying to convince us that Calvinism is true, I'll stand corrected.

But if you're trying to convince us that Calvinism is false, then so far, you have failed miserably.
If you want to put a DECENT attempt to convince us, then a good faith action would be to answer our questions, which you refuse to do.

Show me a verse which states man is unable to confess his sins

1) Show us a verse which states that man is ABLE "to confess his sins".

2) Can we at least agree that "confessing one's sins" is pleasing to God?

Show me a verse which says man is unable to accept God's offer of help

3) Show us a verse which says that ALL men are "able" to accept God's "offer of help".

4) For that matter, show us a verse that says that all God does is "offer to help".

Show me a verse which actually states no man can understand or believe the gospel unless regenerated

5) Show us a verse which actually states that all men CAN believe the gospel with out being regenerated

6) Show us a verse which actually states that men can "believe" without God FIRST given them "faith".

of course salvation is impossible for man God must save. But that he cannot save himself does not mean he cannot believe either'. That is just an assumption of your theology

But that he cannot save himself does NOT mean that he CAN believe either. THAT is just an assumption of YOUR theology.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Tom,

You keep "challenging" us to "show [you] a verse" to convince you that Calvinism is true.
I can't speak for anyone else, but as for me, I'm not the least bit interested in "convincing" you of anything. You can be saved remaining an Arminian. I personally don't care what you believe, especially when you summarily reject anything we say.
That's fine if you don't want to convince me of anything

You have right

I only dismiss what I see as contrary to the word off God


However, your posts on this board suggest that it is YOU who is trying to convince US that Calvinism is false, and that your theology is true. Maybe that's not what you're trying to do, and if you tell me you're not trying to convince us that Calvinism is true, I'll stand corrected.

Just the things I talk about. There are a number of other things I find we share in common

But if you're trying to convince us that Calvinism is false, then so far, you have failed miserably.
If you want to put a DECENT attempt to convince us, then a good faith action would be to answer our questions, which you refuse to do.

You claim above is false. I have been address all that is put to me and far more than I receive back as replies to my concerns

1) Show us a verse which states that man is ABLE "to confess his sins".

2) Can we at least agree that "confessing one's sins" is pleasing to God?

Yep
3) Show us a verse which says that ALL men are "able" to accept God's "offer of help".

Who said anything about all men

I only note men do
4) For that matter, show us a verse that says that all God does is "offer to help".

Who said that is all he does. I never did



5) Show us a verse which actually states that all men CAN believe the gospel with out being regenerated

The fact that regeneration requires men believe the gospel before being regenerated

I have posted a lot of such proof most of which goes unanswered or is simply denied out off hand

Take a look at the op Regeneration is not the answer to the Calvinist catch 22d




6) Show us a verse which actually states that men can "believe" without God FIRST given them "faith".

I see no where in the bible it is stated God effectually causes men to believe

and your position insists regeneration is needed to that end . The fact faith is required before regeneration does just that

again see the op mentioned

One quick example

1 Pet. 1:18–23 —KJV
“Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.”
But that he cannot save himself does NOT mean that he CAN believe either. THAT is just an assumption of YOUR theology.

No that would be the obvious conclusion of the fact you cannot be regenerated without faith

as well as the fact it is presupposed everywhere in the bible

example

John 20:31 —KJV
“But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.”


See also the op Why the Calvinist interpretation of 1Co 2:14 makes no sense
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Theo1689 said:
3) Show us a verse which says that ALL men are "able" to accept God's "offer of help".

Who said anything about all men

I only note men do

That's very interesting.

So it is your position that some men are "unable" to accept God's "offer of help"?


And once again, can you please quote the verse that describes God's actions as "offer of help"?
 

TomFL

Well-known member
1 Cor 2 14 The Natural man cannot receive or understand the things of God. The Only way is for him to be made Spiritual, and that comes about by the New Birth. 1 Cor 2 14 destroys all confidence in the flesh, thats why people try to get rid of it, or desperately explain it away. 1 Cor 2 14-15


But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

The word spiritual means:

one who is filled with and governed by the Spirit of God:

The natural man is void of the Spirit of God.
That does not do

That only shows the psychikos cannot do it

as 1co chatper 1 shows men understood and believed the gospel and got saved
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Sure it does it.
Yes it does

1 Cor. 1:18–21 —ESV
Ҧ For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
For it is written, “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.”
¶ Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe.”
 

armylngst

Well-known member
1) Show us a verse which states that man is ABLE "to confess his sins".
Be careful here, because he said confess, not repent. Anyone can confess of a sin, that is agree that what they did is a sin. It only means something to a believer though.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Be careful here, because he said confess, not repent. Anyone can confess of a sin, that is agree that what they did is a sin. It only means something to a believer though.


Jesus was not telling men to do something they could not


Matt. 4:17 —KJV
“From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

Nor was the father

Ezek. 18:30–32 —KJV
Ҧ Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.”

Job did

Job 42:6 —KJV
“Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.”

David we know repented

The gentiles repented unto life Acts 11:18
 

armylngst

Well-known member
Jesus was not telling men to do something they could not


Matt. 4:17 —KJV
“From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”
Apparently He was, because there are plenty who do not.
nor was the father

Ezek. 18:30–32 —KJV
Ҧ Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.”
Yet we know in the end that this did not happen, because God finally let Israel go, until a future time, when God will reconcile personally with His chosen people. (Zechariah)
Job did

Job 42:6 —KJV
“Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.”

David we know repented

The gentiles repented unto life Acts 11:18
Esau, and others we know cannot and will not, because God made that clear. Your argument goes *poof*. Those who repented were men of God, which means they had God's spirit working in them, even if it is not the same as having the Holy Spirit today. The Holy Spirit was operational even then.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Apparently He was, because there are plenty who do not.

Yet there was those who did

So that does not help your claim
Yet we know in the end that this did not happen, because God finally let Israel go, until a future time, when God will reconcile personally with His chosen people. (Zechariah)

You forget these

Rom. 11:4–5 —KJV
“But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace”
Esau, and others we know cannot and will not, because God made that clear. Your argument goes *poof*. Those who repented were men of God, which means they had God's spirit working in them, even if it is not the same as having the Holy Spirit today. The Holy Spirit was operational even then.

That is circulatory reasoning

One needs repentance and faith to be regenerated

And Rom 9 is not talking about unconditional election of particular men to salvation or reprobation

Mal. 1:1–4 —KJV
Ҧ The burden of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi.
I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob’s brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob,
And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.
Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places; thus saith the LORD of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the LORD hath indignation for ever.”

Malachi makes it clear this has to so with God's choice of their descendants a nation which would be bless and the other not
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Jesus was not telling men to do something they could not


Matt. 4:17 —KJV
From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

Nor was the father

Ezek. 18:30–32 —KJV
Ҧ Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.”

Job did

Job 42:6 —KJV
“Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.”

David we know repented

The gentiles repented unto life Acts 11:18
Jesus was talking to the regenerate to repent.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Jesus was talking to the regenerate to repent.
sorry men must repent before being regenerate

Acts 11:18 —ESV
“When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.””

repentance comes first
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
sorry men must repent before being regenerate

Acts 11:18 —ESV
“When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.””

repentance comes first
In your dreams. Christ was the one who gives repentance to His People Acts 5 31

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

He was their Saviour !
 

TomFL

Well-known member
In your dreams. Christ was the one who gives repentance to His People Acts 5 31

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

He was their Saviour !
First you just ignored scripture

Acts 11:18 —ESV
“When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.””

and the fact that it comes before new life which is regeneration

Then you head off on a completely different tangent having nothing to do with the subject at hand


and BTW the word is granted it does not meaning irresistibly give or cause
 
Top