Did God causally determine Cain's offering

armylngst

Well-known member
Yet there was those who did

So that does not help your claim
It helps it much. They did not, because they cannot. Jesus already stated that with man it is impossible. I'm not sure how you are going about changing that word "impossible" to "possible" without God. You keep doing that. Somehow man's great libertarian free will is completely beyond anything God can ever hope to grasp.
You forget these

Rom. 11:4–5 —KJV
“But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace”
I haven't forgotten. God has always had a remnant of His chosen people in Judah, which is why He only completely wiped out Israel.
That is circulatory reasoning

One needs repentance and faith to be regenerated
One is incapable of repenting and having faith without being regenerated, so that kind of defeats your argument.
And Rom 9 is not talking about unconditional election of particular men to salvation or reprobation
Romans 9:14-18 "14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion,[b] but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills."

So then it depends not on human will or exertion... yet you keep saying it does.

"
30 What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness[d] did not succeed in reaching that law. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, 33 as it is written,

“Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense;
and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”"

So those who were not seeking after God, and pursuing righteousness somehow found it. Those who pursued the law that leads to righteousness failed miserably.
Mal. 1:1–4 —KJV
Ҧ The burden of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi.
I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob’s brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob,
And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.
Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places; thus saith the LORD of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the LORD hath indignation for ever.”

Malachi makes it clear this has to so with God's choice of their descendants a nation which would be bless and the other not
I'm not sure where you are getting that. I mean, He is pretty clear that He hated Easu, and as such, laid his mountains and his heritage (Edom) waste for the dragons of the wilderness. It wasn't because of Edom, it was because of Esau, the people against whom the Lord has indignation forever. That's rather...forever like. So either He decided to destroy all the Edomites simply because they were Edomites, or, as more clearly understood through this and other scriptures, because they are Esau's progeny/heritage.

Romans 9:10-13 "10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”"

Before they had done good or bad, so that kind of throws out the idea of foresight in choice, and makes it sound more like "according to the good pleasure of His will." (There's that pesky Ephesians 1:4 again.) It wasn't by anything they had done, no works, but because of him who calls...that is God.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Yet there was those who did

So that does not help your claim


You forget these

Rom. 11:4–5 —KJV
“But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace”


That is circulatory reasoning

One needs repentance and faith to be regenerated

And Rom 9 is not talking about unconditional election of particular men to salvation or reprobation

Mal. 1:1–4 —KJV
Ҧ The burden of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi.
I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob’s brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob,
And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.
Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places; thus saith the LORD of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the LORD hath indignation for ever.”

Malachi makes it clear this has to so with God's choice of their descendants a nation which would be bless and the other not

It helps it much. They did not, because they cannot. Jesus already stated that with man it is impossible. I'm not sure how you are going about changing that word "impossible" to "possible" without God. You keep doing that. Somehow man's great libertarian free will is completely beyond anything God can ever hope to grasp.

I haven't forgotten. God has always had a remnant of His chosen people in Judah, which is why He only completely wiped out Israel.
And on what basis were those of the election of grace but of faith

Remember those cutoff were cutoff because of unbelief

and if they remain not in unbelief they would be grafted in again

Rom. 11:19–23 —KJV
“Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.”

One is incapable of repenting and having faith without being regenerated, so that kind of defeats your argument.
Wrong scripture neverstates that

Rather it shows you must believe the gospel to be born again

James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

1Pet. 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
1Pet. 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
1Pet. 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
1Pet. 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
1Pet. 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pet. 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1Cor. 4:15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

the gospel must be believed to profit

Heb. 4:2 —KJV
“For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.”

further regeneration is new life so every verse which states you must have faith to have lifee proves faith preceded regeneration

example

John 20:31 —KJV
“But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.”

John 5:24 —KJV
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”






Romans 9:14-18 "14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion,[b] but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills."

So then it depends not on human will or exertion... yet you keep saying it does.

You have misinterpreted that passage which only states God choses the grounds upon which he has mercy. It is not saying that he unconditionally saves some and unconditionally damns others

From scripture we know the grounds upon which he has mercy

he has mercy on those that fear him

He gives grace to the humble

He saves those that believe

that is the testimony of scripture
"
30 What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness[d] did not succeed in reaching that law. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, 33 as it is written,

“Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense;
and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”"

So those who were not seeking after God, and pursuing righteousness somehow found it. Those who pursued the law that leads to righteousness failed miserably.

Why

Because they sought it not by faith as it notes in your reference


I'm not sure where you are getting that. I mean, He is pretty clear that He hated Easu, and as such, laid his mountains and his heritage (Edom) waste for the dragons of the wilderness. It wasn't because of Edom, it was because of Esau, the people against whom the Lord has indignation forever. That's rather...forever like. So either He decided to destroy all the Edomites simply because they were Edomites, or, as more clearly understood through this and other scriptures, because they are Esau's progeny/heritage.
Not according to Malachi and Esau never served Jacob

Malachi even quotes Jacob I have loved Esau I have hated and applies it to his posterity not Esau personally

Romans 9:10-13 "10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”"

Before they had done good or bad, so that kind of throws out the idea of foresight in choice, and makes it sound more like "according to the good pleasure of His will." (There's that pesky Ephesians 1:4 again.) It wasn't by anything they had done, no works, but because of him who calls...that is God.
Again nothing there about unconditional election to salvation or reprobation
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
tom

Remember those cutoff were cutoff because of unbelief

Meaning they werent of His Sheep who Faith is given to in regeneration.

Jn 10:26

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. Hes talking to jews !
 

TomFL

Well-known member
tom



Meaning they werent of His Sheep who Faith is given to in regeneration.

Jn 10:26

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. Hes talking to jews !
Sorry you must have faith previous to regeneration

James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
1Pet. 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
1Pet. 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
1Pet. 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
1Pet. 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
1Pet. 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pet. 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
1Cor. 4:15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

the gospel without faith does not profit

Heb. 4:2 —KJV
“For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.”

and regeneration is new life so any verse which requires faith before life proves faith precedes regeneration

John 20:31 —KJV
“But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.”

John 5:24 —KJV
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
 

armylngst

Well-known member
And on what basis were those of the election of grace but of faith

Remember those cutoff were cutoff because of unbelief

and if they remain not in unbelief they would be grafted in again

Rom. 11:19–23 —KJV
“Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.”
I think that you keep forgetting that the Bible is not the verses in isolation, but that there are themes that run through the scripture by which scripture is understood. For example, the word trinity, and an understanding as we have of trinity is not present anywhere in the Bible, but through study, one can find the underlying theme, and underlying understanding of the trinity in the Bible, going all the way back to Genesis. Try understanding these verses with the idea that God chose unconditionally, that is, the amount of makeup you wear, the amount of weightlifting you do, doesn't change God's choice. He chose by the good pleasure of His will.
Wrong scripture neverstates that

Rather it shows you must believe the gospel to be born again
The Bible also states that the Lord our God is one, and yet you believe in a trinity. You will not find the trinity explicitly mentioned anywhere in the Bible. You can find it masterfully woven throughout, but that means you have to actually study to find it, and not just cut and paste verses without thought. Think of the parable of the master who planted wheat and then the evil one who planted tares. Consider the wheat as the children of promise, and the tares as not. The wheat are not the children of promise by anything they have done. They aren't even wheat by anything they had done. Is it ever understood or taught by Jesus that the wheat can become tares and the tares can become wheat? No. Why not? Because anyone who is a farmer or knows anything about plants knows that what you plant is what you get.

Who are the sheep who recognize Jesus voice when He comes looking for them, before they have even seen Him. Why do they recognize His voice? Well, He is the great shepherd, and they are a bunch of sheep. Is John 6 even in your Bible?
James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
Of His own will...sounds totally compatible with what you are saying. "16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brothers. 17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change.[d] 18 Of his own will he brought us forth by the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures."
Do not be deceived, every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change. That includes salvation, and that last part goes to this all being unconditional. Why? Because it clearly states that He does not vary, He doesn't change. Yet you can find believers from every walk of life. It clearly states that of His own will (not ours) are we brought forth by the word of truth. (That is salvation/regeneration, or since you may not comprehend that regeneration/salvation.)
1Pet. 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
1Pet. 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
1Pet. 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
1Pet. 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
1Pet. 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pet. 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1Cor. 4:15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

the gospel must be believed to profit
You need to look at I Peter again. Jesus was foreordained before the foundation of the world. Why, if there was nothing for Jesus to do, no one for Jesus to save. Foreordination means that there is a plan, and yet, you won't allow for a plan, which would include a list of people Jesus is coming for. Your belief includes the possibility that Jesus died for...NOTHING, for NO ONE. God has to hope and pray that someone will have faith and believe, and hopefully not fail and fall away (to take arminianism to its logical conclusion. I didn't say the logic was sound.) Now this Jesus who was foreordained before the foundation of the world, was made manifest in these last times, not for people to see and believe, but "for you". Who is the you in this passage? Believers. Those God had chosen before the foundation of the world, according to the good pleasure of His will.
Heb. 4:2 —KJV
“For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.”

further regeneration is new life so every verse which states you must have faith to have lifee proves faith preceded regeneration

example

John 20:31 —KJV
“But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.”
This says nothing about regeneration. I don't see it there. I'm looking for the exact wording.
John 5:24 —KJV
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
This also does not speak of regeneration. Do you have any verses that actually explains regeneration, and explicitly states that it works as you say it does? (I'm gonna start making you meet your own standard.)
You have misinterpreted that passage which only states God choses the grounds upon which he has mercy. It is not saying that he unconditionally saves some and unconditionally damns others
Ah, so we begin to see into your lies a little. No one here, that I know of, has stated that God has chosen anyone to go to hell, just those who will be His, and the others...they just are. They continue to go their own way, to sow whatever it is they wish to sow (within the confines of sin, your belief in "libertarian" free will not withstanding, and they reap what they sow.
From scripture we know the grounds upon which he has mercy

he has mercy on those that fear him

He gives grace to the humble

He saves those that believe

that is the testimony of scripture


Why

Because they sought it not by faith as it notes in your reference
But that faith came from God, that is to say, the situation that caused them to react with faith, was brought about by God. (Remember Paul on the road to Damascus? Paul had faith, because of what God did. His eyes were opened by God Himself (spiritual eyes), and he understood that his life was built on a lie...at that moment.
Not according to Malachi and Esau never served Jacob

Malachi even quotes Jacob I have loved Esau I have hated and applies it to his posterity not Esau personally


Again nothing there about unconditional election to salvation or reprobation
 

TomFL

Well-known member
I think that you keep forgetting that the Bible is not the verses in isolation, but that there are themes that run through the scripture by which scripture is understood. For example, the word trinity, and an understanding as we have of trinity is not present anywhere in the Bible, but through study, one can find the underlying theme, and underlying understanding of the trinity in the Bible, going all the way back to Genesis. Try understanding these verses with the idea that God chose unconditionally, that is, the amount of makeup you wear, the amount of weightlifting you do, doesn't change God's choice. He chose by the good pleasure of His will.
That does not deal with the scripture posted

Rom. 11:19–23 —KJV
“Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.”

Do you actually care to address them

I do not care to assume your view of unconditionally and that is simply question begging
 

armylngst

Well-known member
And on what basis were those of the election of grace but of faith
Remember those cutoff were cutoff because of unbelief
and if they remain not in unbelief they would be grafted in again
Rom. 11:19–23 —KJV
“Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.”
Look at it this way. If it wasn't for Israel rejecting the gospel, Gentiles would have never been saved. (If you look at the Bible literally, and you don't look for what lies beneath, the spiritual truth of what the Bible teaches, which is, God had always intended on Israel to reject, and that the gospel message included the Gentiles. This church is the hidden mystery of the Old Testament revealed in the New.)
Wrong scripture neverstates that

For while we were yet dead in our trespasses and sins, Christ died for us. The regeneration is the spirit coming alive, and now the inner man can understand the message of the gospel, and have faith to believe. This quickening of the spirit is brought about by the working of the Holy Spirit. This is, obviously (well to some, maybe not others) not something that occurs within our understanding, that is in time, and in the human re
Rather it shows you must believe the gospel to be born again
Well, yeah, you can keep skipping to the end, or you can start from the beginning. We choose to start from the beginning. The end result of the beginning is that one believes the gospel to be born again. If you take the whole New Testament together as a whole, and try to actually understand how it all works together, you will begin to understand that what you can see as a person is not all there is. You keep putting God in a tiny box, and closing it, telling Him He had better not leave. There is A LOT going on, of which I would have thought that John 6, Ephesians 1:4, Hebrews (that book is really complicated, unless you know Talmud inside and out) , and all the other books that show that there is more going on. Look at Peter talking to the Gentiles. The Holy Spirit (sign of salvation) fell upon the people before Peter even finished preaching the gospel. While he was still speaking. Obviously there is much more going on then what your explanation gives us.
James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
You keep leaving out the rest of the context, but even here, you seemingly skip the whole "of His own will", that is to say, His choice, which reflects back upon Ephesians 1:4.
1Pet. 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
1Pet. 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
1Pet. 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
1Pet. 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
1Pet. 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pet. 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
Now, here is a thought that I re-present to you. It does not say that Jesus was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but made manifest in these last times for all humanity, but for you. For who? For believers. Why does it say "but was manifest in these last times for you? Ephesians 1:4. The believers were chosen before the foundation of the world, and God foreordained His Son to save them before the foundation of the world. This was not manifest until Jesus came to earth, with Paul, and here Peter explaining. Now by who do believers believe in God? By ourselves? By faith. Read I Peter 1:21 again. The who are believers. (not to mention an old rock band.)
1Cor. 4:15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
the gospel must be believed to profit
You are still not explaining how it can be believed by natural man who sees the gospel of Christ as folly.
Heb. 4:2 —KJV
“For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.”
further regeneration is new life so every verse which states you must have faith to have lifee proves faith preceded regeneration
No it does not, or there would be no Hebrews 4:2. You don't even seem to understand what regeneration means. It means that the dead spirit of the natural man, which cannot understand the spiritual things of God, such as the gospel, but see it as folly, is brought to life/quickened/regenerated, and now the once spiritually deaf man can hear...and understand. From that understanding comes faith, and from that faith comes belief/salvation. Stop looking at it like a puny human. These are spiritual truths, not physical/human truths.
example
John 20:31 —KJV
“But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.”
John 5:24 —KJV
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
What isn't mentioned here, but is mentioned in I Corinthians, is that the natural man can hear the gospel, but cannot/will not understand it, and will see it as folly. Even the intellectual greeks couldn't understand, and they were the masters of reason. Jesus does make it sound simple, but for one without the spirit, without God "with man it is impossible", they will not hear to understanding and will therefore not believe. One can listen, but is one truly hearing?
ou have misinterpreted that passage which only states God choses the grounds upon which he has mercy. It is not saying that he unconditionally saves some and unconditionally damns others
From scripture we know the grounds upon which he has mercy
he has mercy on those that fear him
He gives grace to the humble
He saves those that believe
that is the testimony of scripture
That is not what the verse says. He is clear when He says that He will have mercy upon those whom He will have mercy. He is very clear that He personally chose to hate Esau, and He personally chose to destroy Pharaoh, that His glory and His power be made manifest to His chosen people Israel. And He had every right to do it. He is the Creator. Stop letting humanism/post modern thought get mixed in with your beliefs.
Why
Because they sought it not by faith as it notes in your reference
Not according to Malachi and Esau never served Jacob
Malachi even quotes Jacob I have loved Esau I have hated and applies it to his posterity not Esau personally
Again nothing there about unconditional election to salvation or reprobation
This is what you get when you don't actually study what you talk about. Esau did serve Jacob, though perhaps not according to your understanding. This is what happens when you don't take the Bible as a whole, and use eisogesis, instead of exegesis. God hated Esau, which is why his posterity suffered. God did not stutter when He said that He hated Esau. He didn't just mouth do not, before vocalizing hate. God blessed Esau's temporary existence on earth, perhaps because He hated Esau, knowing what judgement and suffering was to follow. Perhaps because of Esau's father Isaac? Remember what Jesus said about the rich young ruler. While he cared for the young ruler, and that young ruler showed all the blessings of God, Jesus said he wasn't entering the kingdom of God. Life on earth, next to eternity, truly is temporary. Life is but a mist, but a vapor, here one moment, and gone the next. What comes next never ends. What is a split second of ecstasy next to 2 billion years of ultimate suffering?
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Look at it this way. If it wasn't for Israel rejecting the gospel, Gentiles would have never been saved. (If you look at the Bible literally, and you don't look for what lies beneath, the spiritual truth of what the Bible teaches, which is, God had always intended on Israel to reject, and that the gospel message included the Gentiles. This church is the hidden mystery of the Old Testament revealed in the New.)
Provide book chapter and verse



For while we were yet dead in our trespasses and sins, Christ died for us. The regeneration is the spirit coming alive, and now the inner man can understand the message of the gospel, and have faith to believe. This quickening of the spirit is brought about by the working of the Holy Spirit. This is, obviously (well to some, maybe not others) not something that occurs within our understanding, that is in time, and in the human re

Actually you must have faith in the gospel before being regenerate

James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
1Pet. 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
1Pet. 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
1Pet. 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
1Pet. 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
1Pet. 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pet. 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
1Cor. 4:15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

the gospel without faith does not profit

Heb. 4:2 —KJV
“For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.”

The scripture suffice to give knowledge unto salvation

2 Tim. 3:15 —KJV
“And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.”

and faith always precedes new life

John 20:31 —KJV
“But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.”

John 5:24 —KJV
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”

John 5:40 —KJV
“And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.”
 

armylngst

Well-known member
That does not deal with the scripture posted

Rom. 11:19–23 —KJV
“Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.”

Do you actually care to address them

I do not care to assume your view of unconditionally and that is simply question begging
I'm sorry, but I thought I had already said that scripture cannot be taken in isolation. You keep trying to isolate scripture from the rest, throwing out the rest. Remember, the burden of proof is on you to prove that God had a list of conditions/merits, such as I had listed, that he used in choosing people. Start with Israel and what God said about his choosing of them in Deutoronomy. He made it clear that He had no conditions when He chose Israel, because Israel didn't meet ANY condition He mentioned.
 

armylngst

Well-known member
Provide book chapter and verse
How about Romans 9-12? Especially 11. It is all about the rejection of Israel being the salvation of the Gentiles. It is quite clear. When was the last time you actually read Romans, since the verses you are looking for are in the same chapter you have quoted from already? What I had said:
armylngst:
Look at it this way. If it wasn't for Israel rejecting the gospel, Gentiles would have never been saved. (If you look at the Bible literally, and you don't look for what lies beneath, the spiritual truth of what the Bible teaches, which is, God had always intended on Israel to reject, and that the gospel message included the Gentiles. This church is the hidden mystery of the Old Testament revealed in the New.)
Romans 11 (with the part you quoted removed):
"11:1 I ask, then, has God rejected His people? Absolutely not! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or don’t you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he pleads with God against Israel?
3 Lord, they have killed Your prophets
and torn down Your altars.
I am the only one left,
and they are trying to take my life![ap]
4 But what was God’s reply to him? I have left 7,000 men for Myself who have not bowed down to Baal.[aq] 5 In the same way, then, there is also at the present time a remnant chosen by grace. 6 Now if by grace, then it is not by works; otherwise grace ceases to be grace.[ar]
7 What then? Israel did not find what it was looking for, but the elect did find it. The rest were hardened, 8 as it is written:
God gave them a spirit of insensitivity,[as]
eyes that cannot see
and ears that cannot hear,
to this day.[at]
9 And David says:
Let their feasting[au] become a snare and a trap,
a pitfall and a retribution to them.
10 Let their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,
and their backs be bent continually.[av]
11 I ask, then, have they stumbled in order to fall? Absolutely not! On the contrary, by their stumbling,[aw] salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel jealous. 12 Now if their stumbling[ax] brings riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full number bring!
13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. In view of the fact that I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if I can somehow make my own people[ay] jealous and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection brings reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? 16 Now if the firstfruits offered up are holy, so is the whole batch. And if the root is holy, so are the branches.
...
25 So that you will not be conceited, brothers, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery: A partial hardening has come to Israel until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And in this way all[ba] Israel will be saved, as it is written:
The Liberator will come from Zion;
He will turn away godlessness from Jacob.
27 And this will be My covenant with them[bb]
when I take away their sins.[bc]
28 Regarding the gospel, they are enemies for your advantage, but regarding election, they are loved because of the patriarchs, 29 since God’s gracious gifts and calling are irrevocable.[bd] 30 As you once disobeyed God, but now have received mercy through their disobedience, 31 so they too have now disobeyed, resulting in mercy to you, so that they also now[be] may receive mercy. 32 For God has imprisoned all in disobedience, so that He may have mercy on all." [all emphasis mine]
I think this passage speaks for itself. Israel rejected God, so God sent the gospel to the Gentiles. By Israel's rejection of the gospel, salvation came to the Gentiles. And as one sees from above, it was always God's plan. It is the mystery of the Old Testament, revealed as the church. I'm pretty sure you won't be able to understand this at all.

Actually you must have faith in the gospel before being regenerate
You have yet to present a verse that explicitly states this. You haven't even presented a verse that explicitly shows that God chose based on conditions. I have presented a verse that shows God chose "according to the good pleasure of His will." And it is so explicit that you have to throw away the verses to get around it. (You throw away Ephesians 1:4-5) That phrase means He had no set conditions.
James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
Of His own will begat He us. Reflect that back upon the verse that says that He chose us in Him, before the foundation of the world...according to the good pleasure of His will. That, in a nutshell, is an implicit stitch in the tapestry of life that says, God chose without condition to save us.
1Pet. 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
1Pet. 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
1Pet. 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
1Pet. 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
1Pet. 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pet. 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
I have responded to this multiple times already. Jesus was foreordained before the foundation of the world, just as we were chosen before the foundation of the world, and the salvation He brings was made manifest "in these last times for you". (Who is the you? Believers. So He was not manifested for the whole world, but for those chosen before the foundation of the world to believe and be saved.)
--To be continued--
 

TomFL

Well-known member
I'm sorry, but I thought I had already said that scripture cannot be taken in isolation. You keep trying to isolate scripture from the rest, throwing out the rest. Remember, the burden of proof is on you to prove that God had a list of conditions/merits, such as I had listed, that he used in choosing people. Start with Israel and what God said about his choosing of them in Deutoronomy. He made it clear that He had no conditions when He chose Israel, because Israel didn't meet ANY condition He mentioned.
That does not mean you cannot address the passage and in fact you must do so one by one

and they must be consistent If a pasage states they were broken off because of unbelief and if they did not remain in unbelief they would be grafted in there is no way you can assume they were victims of an unconditional election to reprobation or of just being passed over no matter what passage you go to
 

armylngst

Well-known member
--Continuation--
1Cor. 4:15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
the gospel without faith does not profit
James in James 1:18 kind of does not agree with this, when he says "Of Paul's own will begat he us", oh wait, I mean "Of God's own will begat He us." This is what I mean that you are completely missing the implicit understanding of the gospel, as
the gospel without faith does not profit
Heb. 4:2 —KJV
“For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.”
If you read what is in Romans 11 again, and read the whole New Testament, you will find that it is because of God that the word preached did not profit them. You may say it doesn't match, but Hebrews was not written to Gentiles, which Paul wasn't speaking of in Romans 11, but to the Jews, who Paul was speaking of in Romans 11.
The scripture suffice to give knowledge unto salvation
2 Tim. 3:15 —KJV
“And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.”
Able to will are two different things. God is able to destroy the whole universe right now by snapping His fingers, it does not mean He will. You still have not presented why those in Hebrews 4:2 are not saved, and why those mentioned here could be saved. What causes the wisdom to be that which saves? The obvious answer, tread softly here, is the Holy Spirit.
and faith always precedes new life
John 20:31 —KJV
“But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.”
Faith precedes salvation, but that does not mean faith precedes the regeneration of one's dead spirit. You are very worldly/temporal in view. You need to look past that. Faith is a reaction brought about by the regeneration of the spirit, and the understanding of one's condition before a wrathful God, through the gospel. It is not a work, and it is not a gift. The salvation of man is the gift. The reaction that is faith is the complete and utter change in a man's soul/mind, now understanding and believing in the truth.
John 5:24 —KJV
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
Once again, this verse doesn't explain HOW they come to understand the word that is heard, and thus believe. That is found elsewhere in scripture, but, I keep forgetting you isolate scripture constantly.
John 5:40 —KJV
“And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.”
You left out part of it. "39 You study[c] the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life." Wow, who thought what you left out would help destroy your argument.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
TomFL said:
1Cor. 4:15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. the gospel without faith does not profit
James in James 1:18 kind of does not agree with this, when he says "Of Paul's own will begat he us", oh wait, I mean "Of God's own will begat He us." This is what I mean that you are completely missing the implicit understanding of the gospel, as
Of course God causes men to be born again. No one denies that. Do you have any real idea of what you are oposing ?
The gospel is the means of regeneration. It must be believe to profit. The begetting is God's part Beliecing mans


TomFL said:
the gospel without faith does not profit
Heb. 4:2 —KJV
“For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.”
If you read what is in Romans 11 again, and read the whole New Testament, you will find that it is because of God that the word preached did not profit them. You may say it doesn't match, but Hebrews was not written to Gentiles, which Paul wasn't speaking of in Romans 11, but to the Jews, who Paul was speaking of in Romans 11.
Book chapter and verse No morte of these general non specific appeals

Romans 11 is clear

Rom. 11:20–23 —KJV
“Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.”

they were broken ofv because of unbelief asnd they would be grafted in again if they remained not in unbelief


TomFL said:
The scripture suffice to give knowledge unto salvation
2 Tim. 3:15 —KJV
“And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.”
Able to will are two different things. God is able to destroy the whole universe right now by snapping His fingers, it does not mean He will. You still have not presented why those in Hebrews 4:2 are not saved, and why those mentioned here could be saved. What causes the wisdom to be that which saves? The obvious answer, tread softly here, is the Holy Spirit.
Don't divert. If the scriptures are not understandable they canot make wise to salvation



TomFL said:
and faith always precedes new life
John 20:31 —KJV
“But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.”
Faith precedes salvation, but that does not mean faith precedes the regeneration of one's dead spirit. You are very worldly/temporal in view. You need to look past that. Faith is a reaction brought about by the regeneration of the spirit, and the understanding of one's condition before a wrathful God, through the gospel. It is not a work, and it is not a gift. The salvation of man is the gift. The reaction that is faith is the complete and utter change in a man's soul/mind, now understanding and believing in the truth.
Sorry regeneration is new life multiple quotes from Calvinit theologiamns, dictionaries and lexcons have established that. Go do a search for op with a title that includes the word regeneration

So any verse which speaks of entering life and is preceded by faith shows faith precedes regeneration



TomFL said:
John 5:24 —KJV
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
Once again, this verse doesn't explain HOW they come to understand the word that is heard, and thus believe. That is found elsewhere in scripture, but, I keep forgetting you isolate scripture constantly.
Wrong topic

Again regeneration is new life Faith precedes new life


TomFL said:
John 5:40 —KJV
“And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.”
You left out part of it. "39 You study[c] the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life." Wow, who thought what you left out would help destroy your argument.
man is the gift. The reaction that is faith is the complete and utter change in a man's soul/mind, now understanding and believing in the truth.

LOL that does not destroy my argument in any manner

Do you know what you are arguing against ?

verse 40 once again shows regeneration life is preceded faith

and verse 39 shows theyn refuse to come to Christ not they were determined to such from birth


It deems you have little grasp on what is being argued and you don't deal with it
 
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