Did God Create God When He Created Man?

Sketo

Active member
Two questions...

Is God dependent on something outside of himself in order to function properly and adequately... or... is God independently sufficient in-and-of-himself apart from anything outside of himself?

Is Man dependent on something outside of himself in order to function properly and adequately... or... is Man independently sufficient in-and-of-himself apart from anything outside of himself?
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Two questions...

Is God dependent on something outside of himself in order to function properly and adequately... or... is God independently sufficient in-and-of-himself apart from anything outside of himself?

Is Man dependent on something outside of himself in order to function properly and adequately... or... is Man independently sufficient in-and-of-himself apart from anything outside of himself?
No. God is free

He does whatever he pleases

So why would you deny God has libertarian free will ?

Now as to man it appears you are heading into a fallacy and a failure to recognize the difference between a hard and a soft (limited) libertarian free will

No Christian theologian claims a hard or absolute libertarian free will
 
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Sketo

Active member
No. God is free

He does whatever he pleases

So why would you deny God has libertarian free will ?

Now as to man it appears you are heading into a fallacy and a failure to recognize the difference between a hard and a soft (limited) libertarian free will

No Christian theologian claims a hard or absolute libertarian free will
So you agree that God did not create Lucifer, or man, with “nature” like God. That’s good!
You also agree that, in your SLF-ism, Gods “nature” does not allow sin into the final “set of options” available for his “will” to choose from... correct?

Therefore you affirm that, in your SLF-ism, God created Lucifer, and Adam, with a different “nature” than his own, a “nature” that does allow sin into the “set of options” available for their Will to choose from!
 

TomFL

Well-known member
So you agree that God did not create Lucifer, or man, with “nature” like God. That’s good!
You also agree that, in your SLF-ism, Gods “nature” does not allow sin into the final “set of options” available for his “will” to choose from... correct?

Therefore you affirm that, in your SLF-ism, God created Lucifer, and Adam, with a different “nature” than his own, a “nature” that does allow sin into the “set of options” available for their Will to choose from!
First I never mentioned Satan

No. God is free

He does whatever he pleases

So why would you deny God has libertarian free will ?

Now as to man it appears you are heading into a fallacy and a failure to recognize the difference between a hard and a soft (limited) libertarian free will

No Christian theologian claims a hard or absolute libertarian free will

second you never address the question which I have bolded

Third you failed to recognize the difference between a hard and a soft Libertarian free will

Fourth and as for creation God created Satan and Adam with the capability to sin

God does not have that "capability"
 

Sketo

Active member
First I never mentioned Satan
Your SLF-ism affirms that God, Satan, and Man all have the same “Libertarian Freewill”!
No. God is free

He does whatever he pleases
I agree! But his “will” is not free to please outside of the “set of options” determined by his “nature”... correct?
So why would you deny God has libertarian free will ?
Because I don’t believe God’s “will” flips-a-coin to to decide among the final “set of options” determined by his “nature”!
God does not have a “random will” like SLF-ism suggests!

Now as to man it appears you are heading into a fallacy and a failure to recognize the difference between a hard and a soft (limited) libertarian free will
Hard or soft LF-ism can’t answer the questions!
No Christian theologian claims a hard or absolute libertarian free will
What’s the difference? None of those can answer! Not even SLF-ism can answer!
second you never address the question which I have bolded
See above...
Third you failed to recognize the difference between a hard and a soft Libertarian free will
Explain the difference and I will show you where it still can’t answer!
Fourth and as for creation God created Satan and Adam with the capability to sin
Finally you admit that God is the “first” cause, but you, and your SLF-ism, can’t answer for the second cause!
Why did Satan and Adam’s “will” land on sin among the other option available?
Was it because their “will” flipped-a-coin and it just happened to land on sin instead of the non-sin option in the “set”?
You will not answer this question because you know it destroys ALL Libertarianism when you do!

God does not have that "capability"
And where did that “capability” in Lucifer and Man come from Tom?
You don’t have to answer because you already have...

God created Satan and Adam with the capability to sin
God is the “first cause” even in your system Tom!
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Your SLF-ism affirms that God, Satan, and Man all have the same “Libertarian Freewill”!

No it does not

You do not know what you are talking about here

Mans free will is limited or soft


I agree! But his “will” is not free to please outside of the “set of options” determined by his “nature”... correct?
Well the nature does limit to a set of options


Because I don’t believe God’s “will” flips-a-coin to to decide among the final “set of options” determined by his “nature”!
God does not have a “random will” like SLF-ism suggests!

Here is where you simply assumed the only two option are determinism or random chance

I challenged your assumption with God decision to create

Was he determined or was creation just random chance

but you never answer

And no Libertertarian free will does not suggest random chance

You were told there are other factors such as circumstance, mood, external influence which go to narrow the choice down

You simply do not understand what you rail against





Hard or soft LF-ism can’t answer the questions!

What’s the difference? None of those can answer! Not even SLF-ism can answer!

Lets see you stated

You also agree that, in your SLF-ism, Gods “nature” does not allow sin into the final “set of options” available for his “will” to choose from... correct?

Therefore you affirm that, in your SLF-ism, God created Lucifer, and Adam, with a different “nature” than his own, a “nature” that does allow sin into the “set of options” available for their Will to choose from!

For God yes

His holiness will not allow him to sin

You have a problem with that ?

I already told you Adam and Satan natures was not as God's

God did not create another God but a lesser being

Do you have a point ?

What question do you imagine needs to be answered ?
 

Sketo

Active member
No it does not

You do not know what you are talking about here

Mans free will is limited or soft
TomFL said:
...As to why they sinned I have no idea

Well the nature does limit to a set of options
TomFL said:
...As to why they sinned I have no idea

And no Libertertarian free will does not suggest random chance

You were told there are other factors such as circumstance, mood, external influence which go to narrow the choice down
TomFL said:
As to why they sinned I have no idea

Lets see you stated

You also agree that, in your SLF-ism, Gods “nature” does not allow sin into the final “set of options” available for his “will” to choose from... correct?

Therefore you affirm that, in your SLF-ism, God created Lucifer, and Adam, with a different “nature” than his own, a “nature” that does allow sin into the “set of options” available for their Will to choose from!

For God yes
TomFL said:
As to why they sinned I have no idea


His holiness will not allow him to sin
What about Satan, Lucifer, Adam, and fallen man?
TomFL said:
As to why they sinned I have no idea


I already told you Adam and Satan natures was not as God's
But...
TomFL said:
...As to why they sinned I have no idea

What question do you imagine needs to be answered ?
I think you covered it!
 

TomFL

Well-known member
If “you have no idea” then you can’t prove anything did or didn’t cause the sin!
All you have is mere assumption!
I assumed no reason as to why they sinned as the bible does not tell me

So is your solution God determined it

Determined Satan ?

Determined Adam ?

The fall ?

An inability to avoid sin or believe God ?

For what purpose ?

So he could determine to save some and damn others

based upon nothing that is in the man but his own pleasure ?
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
I assumed no reason as to why they sinned as the bible does not tell me

So is your solution God determined it

Determined Satan ?

Determined Adam ?

The fall ?

An inability to avoid sin or believe God ?

For what purpose ?

So he could determine to save some and damn others

based upon nothing that is in the man but his own pleasure ?
All things were created for Jesus Christ, which encompasses a Salvation from sin and its consequences ! God is Glorified by that !
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
God is glorified by determining sin ?

Is that you belief
Yes, Because He had determined The Saviour from Sin 1 Pet 1:20

who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you

Now I answered Yes to your question and gave reason for it scripturally. Now answer me this with a yes or no and if you like, the reason. Is God Glorified by Christ dying for sin ?
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Yes, Because He had determined The Saviour from Sin 1 Pet 1:20

who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you

Now I answered Yes to your question and gave reason for it scripturally. Now answer me this with a yes or no and if you like, the reason. Is God Glorified by Christ dying for sin ?
Yes it was an example of his love

but if God causally determined all sin Christ died for God's determination
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Yes it was an example of his love

but if God causally determined all sin Christ died for God's determination
Okay when it comes to Salvation God is Love, Its His Being, He chose to manifest that Love by redemption from sin 1 Jn 4 9

In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.


Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

So I agree with God being Love, and He wanting to manifest it the way He wanted to, by redemption, He created the World, and in conjunction of course with manifestation of that Love through Christ He determined sin, and by it [sin] God through Christ is Glorified. Sin Glorified Christ in that redemptive sense ! This basically is elementary my friend !
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Okay when it comes to Salvation God is Love, Its His Being, He chose to manifest that Love by redemption from sin 1 Jn 4 9

In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

You forgot one thing in the determinist view God determined all that sin that required redemption

So God is simply redeeming his determinations
 

zerinus

Member
Two questions...

Is God dependent on something outside of himself in order to function properly and adequately... or... is God independently sufficient in-and-of-himself apart from anything outside of himself?
God is independent.
Is Man dependent on something outside of himself in order to function properly and adequately... or... is Man independently sufficient in-and-of-himself apart from anything outside of himself?
Man is dependent; but what conclusion do you intend to draw from that? I suspect that the conclusion you intend to draw from it is that man does not have freewill, which does not logically follow. If God is all-knowing and all-powerful, he is able to grant man full autonomy and freewill, and do so without limiting his own sovereignty at the same time.
 

zerinus

Member
Now as to man it appears you are heading into a fallacy and a failure to recognize the difference between a hard and a soft (limited) libertarian free will

No Christian theologian claims a hard or absolute libertarian free will
No idea what that is. I know of only one kind of libertarian freewill; and you either have it or you don't.
 

zerinus

Member
So you agree that God did not create Lucifer, or man, with “nature” like God. That’s good!
No idea what that is either. It seems to me that you are both venturing far into the realm of unbiblical speculation, which is a dangerous thing to do.
 
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