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Did God Initially Create Adam With A Sin Nature?
- Thread starter Sketo
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Sketo
Well-known member
If God immutably knew the outcome of his action... before the action... then the continuation of the action becomes determination!
Gods action resulted in the exact outcome he immutably foreknew it would!
This is determination!
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TomFL
Guest
No foreknowledge is not determination
And we both know Calvinist creeds decry any use of foreknowledge in God's decree
So you have meticulous determination of all things including all of mens sin if you want to hold on to such
determination
contradicted by scripture
James 1:13 ¶ Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
James 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
James 1:16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
1Cor. 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
1John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
Jer. 19:5 —ESV
“and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or decree, nor did it come into my mind—”
Seems to me one can either believe scripture or believe in divine meticulous determination of all things including all the sin of mankind
brightfame52
Well-known member
The ability to sin denotes a sin nature. That ability wasn't in Christ and I don't believe it will in the Saints in Glory.
Sketo
Well-known member
I didn’t say it was Tom! I said...
If God immutably knew the outcome of his action... before the action... then the continuation of the action becomes determination!
Foreknowledge of outcome + continued action = Determination!
T
TomFL
Guest
No that still is not determination
It would just be knowledge of a free act not a determining of the act
and you still have
And we both know Calvinist creeds decry any use of foreknowledge in God's decree
So you have meticulous determination of all things including all of mens sin if you want to hold on to such
determination
contradicted by scripture
James 1:13 ¶ Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
James 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
James 1:16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
1Cor. 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
1John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
Jer. 19:5 —ESV
“and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or decree, nor did it come into my mind—”
Seems to me one can either believe scripture or believe in divine meticulous determination of all things including all the sin of mankind
to deal with
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TomFL
Guest
No a sin nature is a bias towards sin
CrowCross
Super Member
ReverendRV
Well-known member
Ah; what is the difference?
Is the difference Open Theism?
Don't be mad. Is there any Divine Determination without Foreknowledge?
Danged if you say 'Yes, danged if you say 'No'...
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Sketo
Well-known member
Knowledge of a free act???
Are you saying God did not know the specific act that Gods actions would bring about?
Again...
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TomFL
Guest
No Open theism is not an issue here
The difference is one act was freely done the other was determined
Knowledge of a free act is not the same as a determined act
Why would I be mad ?
Calvinist determinism prohibits foreknowledge from being a factor in God's decree
See WCF
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TomFL
Guest
Yes an act freely done by the involved party
How can I be saying that when I speak of knowledge of a free act
It would just be knowledge of a free act not a determining of the act
you still need to reply to
And we both know Calvinist creeds decry any use of foreknowledge in God's decree
So you have meticulous determination of all things including all of mens sin if you want to hold on to such
determination
contradicted by scripture
James 1:13 ¶ Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
James 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
James 1:16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
1Cor. 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
1John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
Jer. 19:5 —ESV
“and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or decree, nor did it come into my mind—”
Seems to me one can either believe scripture or believe in divine meticulous determination of all things including all the sin of mankind
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Sketo
Well-known member
And both are compatible...
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ReverendRV
Well-known member
Because if there is nothing determined by God himself, but all is determined by what God learns through Foreknowledge; that's Open Theism. Is there anything about the flow of Creation that God did not Foresee but determined himself without Causal Foreknowledge?
You need at least one example to avoid Open Theism; or all is due to God learning it...
One example is Soft Determinism; and you force yourself to round it up to Hard Determinism...
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TomFL
Guest
Calvinist creeds deny the use of foreknowledge in God's decree
II. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions; yet hath he not decreed any thing because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.
Westminster Assembly, The Westminster Confession of Faith: Edinburgh Edition (Philadelphia: William S. Young, 1851), 26–27.
and Open Theism denies foreknowledge as well claiming God canot know the acts of free creatures
I disagree
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TomFL
Guest
Compatibilism is just determinism
God simply determines the desires and the circumstances and man has no other option than to do what God wanted him to do
compatibilism claims doing what you want is free will but that definition is insufficient if God is determining what you want
ReverendRV
Well-known member
That's all true. But they say God can learn every act of every free Creature. How does he do that exactly? Why is it not the same as what you believe?
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TomFL
Guest
ReverendRV
Well-known member
Amen. I was just wondering how you avoided the same problem since you hold to God's Foresight; why would he need it if he didn't learn something from it?