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TomFL
Guest
I hold God knows everything past present and future
He knows it all and does not learn
Its not like he has to look into the future to discover anything
Did God Initially Create Adam With A Sin Nature?
- Thread starter Sketo
- Start date
He knows it all and does not learn
Its not like he has to look into the future to discover anything
ReverendRV
Well-known member
Amen...
Then what good reason would God give Creedence to Foresight as a method to find the Faithful? If anyone could tell me, it's you...
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TomFL
Guest
Sketo
Well-known member
Ok... just because you can’t understand the how does not mean Calvinists can’t understand the how!
Its truth does not depend on your understanding it!
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preacher4truth
Well-known member
He doesn't. Therefore foreknowledge is misunderstood by many. Its counterpart in the OT is witnessed in His purpose to, by grace, choose and love a people by His own choice based on nothing in them. It flies in the face of the erroneous doctrine of "conditional" election.
The Existence and Attributes of God by Stephen Charnock deals with this.
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ReverendRV
Well-known member
Alright; I' stop riding this horse for now...
Much has been developed, and can be revisited later when applicable...
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TomFL
Guest
Was that supposed to be a reply to this
No that still is not determination
It would just be knowledge of a free act not a determining of the act
and you still have
And we both know Calvinist creeds decry any use of foreknowledge in God's decree
So you have meticulous determination of all things including all of mens sin if you want to hold on to such
determination
contradicted by scripture
James 1:13 ¶ Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
James 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
James 1:16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
1Cor. 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
1John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
Jer. 19:5 —ESV
“and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or decree, nor did it come into my mind—”
Seems to me one can either believe scripture or believe in divine meticulous determination of all things including all the sin of mankind
............................................
It does not appear to be
Sketo
Well-known member
Compatibilism is a form of determinism and it should be noted that this position is no less deterministic than hard determinism.
It simply means that God's predetermination and meticulous providence is "compatible" with voluntary choice. Our choices are not coerced ...i.e. we do not choose against what we want or desire, yet we never make choices contrary to God's sovereign decree. What God determines will always come to pass (Eph 1:11)...
In light of Scripture, (according to compatibilism), human choices are exercised voluntarily but the desires and circumstances that bring about these choices occur through divine determinism.
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TomFL
Guest
That says it all
the desires and circumstances that bring about these choices occur through divine determinism.
If man is made so that he can only do that which is his greatest desire and you control those desires you control the man
Did God initially create adam with a sin nature?
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God created Adam after his image and likeness, therefore, Adam was created without a sin nature, just like God. If created in the likeness and image of God, then, Adam is immortal just like God. If immortal, then Adam should be just like the angels, a spirit being.
I believe the creation process of man is not yet done. He is still a work in progress. It's just like a sculptor carving a statue of himself. It's only, say, about 70% complete.
The way I see it is like this:
1st stage : Flesh and blood. Can and will sin eventually, which is part of the creation process.
2nd stage: Christ takes away sin. To those who believe will become immortal, just like the angels.
3rd stage: Resurrection and rapture to heaven. Man's creation is complete -- from mortal to immortality, from corruptible to incorruptible, from sinful to sinless. Now 100% in the image and likeness of God. Done!
Of course, during the "carving" process, there will be wastages. Those wastes are thrown into the fire when the scultpor starts cleaning.
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God created Adam after his image and likeness, therefore, Adam was created without a sin nature, just like God. If created in the likeness and image of God, then, Adam is immortal just like God. If immortal, then Adam should be just like the angels, a spirit being.
I believe the creation process of man is not yet done. He is still a work in progress. It's just like a sculptor carving a statue of himself. It's only, say, about 70% complete.
The way I see it is like this:
1st stage : Flesh and blood. Can and will sin eventually, which is part of the creation process.
2nd stage: Christ takes away sin. To those who believe will become immortal, just like the angels.
3rd stage: Resurrection and rapture to heaven. Man's creation is complete -- from mortal to immortality, from corruptible to incorruptible, from sinful to sinless. Now 100% in the image and likeness of God. Done!
Of course, during the "carving" process, there will be wastages. Those wastes are thrown into the fire when the scultpor starts cleaning.
Sketo
Well-known member
Does this mean “Christ took away sin” of every individual that ever lived... including those who end up in hell?
brightfame52
Well-known member
aprilr
Yes in that it was the natural man in the flesh, which cannot please God, Adam was also carnal . I believe Rom 8:7-8 applied to Adam and Eve from the beginning:
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Their evil nature of flesh was brought to light by Gods Commandment Gen 2 16-17
16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Their disobedience to this Law showed that their carnal minds were not subject to the law/command of God.
Thats false. Adams nature in the flesh as a natural man, even prefall was nothing like God in Nature
Adams as any born again, trusting that Adam and Eve were born again post fall, their immortal life is out of Jesus Christ, who alone is Eternal Life and gives it to His Sheep through the Redemption that is in His Blood
Thats false I believe, the natural creation of man in Adam is a done deal, however when a person is born again, and becomes a New Creation, New Man then is fulfilled man being made in Gods Image Eph 4 24
and that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Col 3 10
and have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
Yes in that it was the natural man in the flesh, which cannot please God, Adam was also carnal . I believe Rom 8:7-8 applied to Adam and Eve from the beginning:
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Their evil nature of flesh was brought to light by Gods Commandment Gen 2 16-17
16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Their disobedience to this Law showed that their carnal minds were not subject to the law/command of God.
Thats false. Adams nature in the flesh as a natural man, even prefall was nothing like God in Nature
Adams as any born again, trusting that Adam and Eve were born again post fall, their immortal life is out of Jesus Christ, who alone is Eternal Life and gives it to His Sheep through the Redemption that is in His Blood
Thats false I believe, the natural creation of man in Adam is a done deal, however when a person is born again, and becomes a New Creation, New Man then is fulfilled man being made in Gods Image Eph 4 24
and that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Col 3 10
and have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
Thank God your opinions don't matter. I have been telling you that your speculation will put you in a bad place with God. What is wrong with dropping the speculation and waiting for God to tell you you were wrong? He isn't going to tell any of us we were right.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Thats your opinion which you entitled to.
Um...on complete speculation? Are you that adamant to see God as you have been shown through scripture...over speculation?
ReverendRV
Well-known member
Very good!
It reminds me of my last Apology that Adam was an Unconditionally Elect son of God before he was under the Edenic Covenant...