Did God Initially Create Adam With A Sin Nature?

[Sketo]

Man has the same freedom to commit sin that God has; the only difference is that man can be tempted, whereas God cannot be.

So man is made, by God, to be temptable... unlike God?

Is there an "unnatural ability to sin"?

Good out of the box question.

Could it be said that God made Adam with the “unnatural ability” to be tempted?
And God does not have this “unnatural ability”?

 

[Sethproton]

Rev 20:2 describes the dragon as the ancient serpent but it doesn't connect it to Genesis. We'd need another reference.

What other ancient serpent is in the Bible?

 

[zerinus]

That’s an interesting thought.

Nothing "interesting" about his thought! He is an atheist. He doesn't believe in any of this stuff.

And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." - Genesis 2:16-17

“in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die”

Was God speaking about physical death or spiritual death here?

It would seem to be a lie if it is speaking of a physical death because “in the day they ate of it” they did not physically die...
and that would render the word “surely” meaningless!

This is why I lean towards “you shall surely die” to mean spiritual death instead.

Wrong: "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return." (Gen. 3:19)

And the woman said to the serpent, "We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden, but God said, 'You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.'"But the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die. - Genesis 3:2-4

Here it seams that the serpent may be “craftily” speaking truth to the woman when he says “You will not surely die” if he is twisting it to mean physical death when God actually meant spiritual death.

In that case God is telling the truth but the serpent is twisting the truth to refer to something God is not!

What are your thoughts?

Your Calvinistic lenses are leading you far astray!

 

[zerinus]

So man is made, by God, to be temptable... unlike God?

God is infallible and impeccable. He is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. That is why he cannot be tempted. Man is none of those things. When God made man "in his own image," it doesn't mean that he made him infallible and impeccable, omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent as well.

Good out of the box question.

LOL!

Could it be said that God made Adam with the “unnatural ability” to be tempted?
And God does not have this “unnatural ability”?

Correct answer given above.

 

[Sketo]

And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." - Genesis 2:16-17

“in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die”

Was God speaking about physical death or spiritual death here?

It would seem to be a lie if it is speaking of a physical death because “in the day they ate of it” they did not physically die...
and that would render the word “surely” meaningless!

This is why I lean towards “you shall surely die” to mean spiritual death instead.

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And the woman said to the serpent, "We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden, but God said, 'You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.'"But the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die. - Genesis 3:2-4

Here it seams that the serpent may be “craftily” speaking truth to the woman when he says “You will not surely die” if he is twisting it to mean physical death when God actually meant spiritual death.

In that case God is telling the truth but the serpent is twisting the truth to refer to something God is not!

What are your thoughts?

Wrong: "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return." (Gen. 3:19)

I’m not sure exactly what you are replying “Wrong” to...

“for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." - Genesis 2:16-17

Did they die in the day they ate of it... as God assured them that they would or not?

 

[zerinus]

I’m not sure exactly what you are replying “Wrong” to...

“for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." - Genesis 2:16-17

Did they die in the day they ate of it... as God assured them that they would or not?

You are assuming that it must mean instantaneous death, which does not have to be. When it says in Genesis 3:19, "... for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return," that is the fulfilment of the promise.

 

[bigthinker]

That’s an interesting thought.

And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." - Genesis 2:16-17

“in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die”

Was God speaking about physical death or spiritual death here?

It would seem to be a lie if it is speaking of a physical death because “in the day they ate of it” they did not physically die...
and that would render the word “surely” meaningless!

This is why I lean towards “you shall surely die” to mean spiritual death instead.

---

And the woman said to the serpent, "We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden, but God said, 'You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.'"But the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die. - Genesis 3:2-4

Here it seams that the serpent may be “craftily” speaking truth to the woman when he says “You will not surely die” if he is twisting it to mean physical death when God actually meant spiritual death.

In that case God is telling the truth but the serpent is twisting the truth to refer to something God is not!

What are your thoughts?

The idea that it might be spiritual death is like fitting a map to the terrain -in other words, when navigating with a map and compass, if one doesn't know how to orientate a map or is mistaken about their position on the map, there is a tendency to make the map fit the terrain instead of the other (correct) way which is to accept that the map is correct and let the terrain and natural landmarks dictate position on the map.
In this case, since Adam and Eve didn't actually die, it is more palatable to think it was a spiritual death since there is a pre-existing belief that God cannot or would not lie.
The text doesn't give any reason to think God was referring to spiritual death.
Also, it kinda seems like the kind of thing someone who is trying to keep someone else in the dark would say, right? Adam and Eve if they never ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil would never know God lied.

 

[bigthinker]

What other ancient serpent is in the Bible?

What reason does the text give to think the garden of eden serpent is the one referred to in revelations?

 

[CrowCross]

What scriptures state Adam "received"a sin nature? I'm still wondering where this doctrine comes from.

The Bible explains the reason for the trouble. Humanity is sinful, not just in theory or in practice but by nature. Sin is part of the very fiber of our being. The Bible speaks of “sinful flesh” in Romans 8:3. It’s our “earthly nature” that produces the list of sins in Colossians 3:5. And Romans 6:6 speaks of “the body ruled by sin.” The flesh-and-blood existence we lead on this earth is shaped by our sinful, corrupt nature.

....rest of artice if you're interested.

 

[bigthinker]

The Bible explains the reason for the trouble. Humanity is sinful, not just in theory or in practice but by nature. Sin is part of the very fiber of our being. The Bible speaks of “sinful flesh” in Romans 8:3. It’s our “earthly nature” that produces the list of sins in Colossians 3:5. And Romans 6:6 speaks of “the body ruled by sin.” The flesh-and-blood existence we lead on this earth is shaped by our sinful, corrupt nature.

Why did God create man with a sinful nature?
More importantly, HOW did the perfect, all-powerful, all-knowing God contradict His own nature and create sinfulness in man?

 

[Sethproton]

What reason does the text give to think the garden of eden serpent is the one referred to in revelations?

The main reason is that the writer of Revelations expects his readers to know what he is talking about, therefore the answer will be found in their writings.
Less likely is the idea that he is writing to the church about some serpent they have never heard of.
I wonder why the simple obvious answer is not acceptable to you?

 

[bigthinker]

The main reason is that the writer of Revelations expects his readers to know what he is talking about,

How is this known? Or: For what reason do you think the author expected his readers to know what he was talking about?

therefore the answer will be found in their writings.
Less likely is the idea that he is writing to the church about some serpent they have never heard of.

True. But it could be a reference to something familiar to his target audience that was meaningful to them but unknown to modern readers.

I wonder why the simple obvious answer is not acceptable to you?

Because it isn't the simplest answer. At this point, it requires a number of assumptions to get to your interpretation. The text is ambiguous rather than precise and Revelations is filled with symbolic language.

 

[Sketo]

You are assuming that it must mean instantaneous death, which does not have to be.

I’m not assuming instantaneous... I am assuming the verse means what it says!

“for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." - Genesis 2:17

You are assuming it must mean something other than what it says!

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Thinking outside the box (Part 1)

I know this is an odd question, and your knee-jerk reaction is to answer with an emphatic NO... but consider this...

Does God have the natural “ability” to sin?

Was Adam made in the image of God?

Where did Adams “ability” to sin come from?

Did God make Adam with the natural “ability” to sin?

So again... Did God Initially Create Adam With A Sin Nature... unlike God’s nature?

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A few extra thought provoking questions on the subject.

What if we have been thinking about it all wrong?

If we call it an “ability”... does it make God “less able” than man?

Why would God create us with an “ability” that He considers a negative thing not allowed in heaven?

What if it is actually a “disability” and God simply does not have the “disability” to sin?

Shouldn’t it be called a “disability” sense God does not have it?

If God created us with a natural “disability” what keeps us from being “totally disabled”?

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I thought this would make for an interesting conversation.
What are you guys thoughts?

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P.S. - If God is not “disabled”, does this mean Satan is “Totally Disabled”?

Adam didn't HAVE a "SIN" nature - he had a HUMAN NATURE identical to yours and mine. And just like us when he got what he thought was a "Better offer" - he took it just like we do. Adam's nature never changed, but his ENVIRONMENT really did. Adam was never "Cursed" (only the earth and the Serpent were).

 

[bigthinker]

I’m not assuming instantaneous... I am assuming the verse means what it says!

“for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." - Genesis 2:17

You are assuming it must mean something other than what it says!

You are assuming that it must mean instantaneous death, which does not have to be. When it says in Genesis 3:19, "... for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return," that is the fulfilment of the promise.

Sketo is assuming nothing; the text is clear. in the day doesn't imply instantaneous. The text is explicit: in the day that you eat of it.

 

[Sethproton]

How is this known? Or: For what reason do you think the author expected his readers to know what he was talking about?

True. But it could be a reference to something familiar to his target audience that was meaningful to them but unknown to modern readers.

Because it isn't the simplest answer. At this point, it requires a number of assumptions to get to your interpretation. The text is ambiguous rather than precise and Revelations is filled with symbolic language.

ok. but at this point, your argument seems to amount to "I don't want it to be the serpent in the garden." Or do you have some facts that cause you to deny the old serpent is the one in the garden?

 

[Sethproton]

Sketo is assuming nothing; the text is clear. in the day doesn't imply instantaneous. The text is explicit: in the day that you eat of it.

Biblically, "In the day" is a phrase that refers to a time period. not a specific moment in time, and not a specific 24 hour day. It is the equivalent of saying. "during that time" At least that is what I have seen in studying the Word. Do you agree?

 

[zerinus]

I’m not assuming instantaneous... I am assuming the verse means what it says!

“for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." - Genesis 2:17

You are assuming it must mean something other than what it says!

in the day God said to him, "... for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return" (Gen. 3:19).

Speaks for itself, I should have thought.

 

[Sketo]

Biblically, "In the day" is a phrase that refers to a time period. not a specific moment in time, and not a specific 24 hour day. It is the equivalent of saying. "during that time" At least that is what I have seen in studying the Word. Do you agree?

“for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." - Genesis 2:17
Thus all the days that Adam lived were 930 years, and he died. - Genesis 5:5

Either...
“in the day” = 930 years...
or...
Die = spiritual death.

Which one makes more sense?

Adams sin did not result in his physical death directly.
Adam being kicked out of the garden denied him access to the “tree of life” and this resulted in him only living for 930 years instead of forever!


Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever-" therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which he was taken. He drove out the man, and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim and a flaming sword that turned every way to guard the way to the tree of life. - Genesis 3:22-24

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Genesis 2:17 is referring mainly to spiritual death... and only secondarily to physical death in relation to access to the “tree of life”!
(See Rev 2:7, 22:2,14,19)

 

[Sketo]

in the day God said to him, "... for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return" (Gen. 3:19).

Speaks for itself, I should have thought.

Thus all the days that Adam lived were 930 years, and he died. - Genesis 5:5

So you think “in the day you eat of it” really means 930 years?