Did God Initially Create Adam With A Sin Nature?

CrowCross

Super Member
Why did God create man with a sinful nature?
More importantly, HOW did the perfect, all-powerful, all-knowing God contradict His own nature and create sinfulness in man?
When you can reply without a strawman...I'll answer. You are so far out there your not even in the ballpark
 

zerinus

Well-known member
“for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." - Genesis 2:17
Thus all the days that Adam lived were 930 years, and he died. - Genesis 5:5

Either...
“in the day” = 930 years...
LOL! If you take Genesis 5:5 literally, you would have to conclude that "one day" = "one year!" However, I have an even better scripture for you to look at:

Deuteronomy 31:

16 And the Lord said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.
17 Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us?
18 And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods.


In this context, "that day" refers to an extended and indefinite period of time, potentially extending over many years.

or...
Die = spiritual death.

Which one makes more sense?
Both. Adam experienced a spiritual as well as a natural death.
Adams sin did not result in his physical death directly.
Adam being kicked out of the garden denied him access to the “tree of life” and this resulted in him only living for 930 years instead of forever!
Well, in those days it was 930 years, nowadays it is more like 93 years! But the basic principles remain the same.
Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever-" therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which he was taken. He drove out the man, and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim and a flaming sword that turned every way to guard the way to the tree of life. - Genesis 3:22-24
God determined the extended period of life and death. He could have made it an instantaneous death if he had wanted to, but he chose to do it the way he did for a wise purpose best known to himself.
Genesis 2:17 is referring mainly to spiritual death... and only secondarily to physical death in relation to access to the “tree of life”!
(See Rev 2:7, 22:2,14,19)
It means both.
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
“for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." - Genesis 2:17
Thus all the days that Adam lived were 930 years, and he died. - Genesis 5:5

Either...
“in the day” = 930 years...
or...
Die = spiritual death.

Which one makes more sense?

Adams sin did not result in his physical death directly.
Adam being kicked out of the garden denied him access to the “tree of life” and this resulted in him only living for 930 years instead of forever!


Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever-" therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which he was taken. He drove out the man, and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim and a flaming sword that turned every way to guard the way to the tree of life. - Genesis 3:22-24



Genesis 2:17 is referring mainly to spiritual death... and only secondarily to physical death in relation to access to the “tree of life”!
(See Rev 2:7, 22:2,14,19)
what would spiritual death mean for Adam, who did not have the Holy Spirit within him?
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
LOL! If you take Genesis 5:5 literally, you would have to conclude that "one day" = "one year!" However, I have an even better scripture for you to look at:

Deuteronomy 31:

16 And the Lord said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.
17 Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us?
18 And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods.


In this context, "that day" refers to an extended and indefinite period of time, potentially extending over many years.

Both. Adam experienced a spiritual as well as a natural death.

Well, in those days it was 930 years, nowadays it is more like 93 years! But the basic principles remain the same.

God determined the extended period of life and death. He could have made it an instantaneous death if he had wanted to, but he chose to do it the way he did for a wise purpose best known to himself.

It means both.
I asked the other poster, but I'll ask you too. Seeing Adam was not born again, not indwelt by the Holy Spirit, what would spiritual death mean to him? And what scriptures would you use to support what you say?
 

zerinus

Well-known member
I asked the other poster, but I'll ask you too. Seeing Adam was not born again, not indwelt by the Holy Spirit, what would spiritual death mean to him? And what scriptures would you use to support what you say?
Adam and Eve had immediate access to the presence of God in the garden of Eden. As a result of their transgression, and after being expelled from the garden, that immediate access was lost, which is what is meant by spiritual death.
 

bigthinker

Well-known member
When you can reply without a strawman...I'll answer. You are so far out there your not even in the ballpark.
lol.
There was no strawman; Do you know what I strawman is? Christian's typically believe that God is the all-powerful, all-knowing, all-good, perfect creator who's only real limit is being unable to contradict his own nature. Do you not agree?
Do you believe that God is not all-powerful, not all-knowing or that he can contradict his own nature?
 

CrowCross

Super Member
lol.
There was no strawman; Do you know what I strawman is? Christian's typically believe that God is the all-powerful, all-knowing, all-good, perfect creator who's only real limit is being unable to contradict his own nature. Do you not agree?
Do you believe that God is not all-powerful, not all-knowing or that he can contradict his own nature?
Chapter and verse please.
 

CrowCross

Super Member
I asked the other poster, but I'll ask you too. Seeing Adam was not born again, not indwelt by the Holy Spirit, what would spiritual death mean to him? And what scriptures would you use to support what you say?
How do you know Adam wasn't indwelt by the Holy Spirit? I'm saying pre-fall.

Post fall I could agree. Was Adam born again? I would say yes. Adam tried to hide his sin with fig leaves...God said not that way and made him garments from an inncent animal that covered his sins until Jesus died and resurrected when his sins were completely washed away by Jesus' blood..
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
Adam and Eve had immediate access to the presence of God in the garden of Eden. As a result of their transgression, and after being expelled from the garden, that immediate access was lost, which is what is meant by spiritual death.
Never heard that idea before. Are you saying that when God pulled back from them, they died?
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
How do you know Adam wasn't indwelt by the Holy Spirit? I'm saying pre-fall.

Post fall I could agree. Was Adam born again? I would say yes. Adam tried to hide his sin with fig leaves...God said not that way and made him garments from an inncent animal that covered his sins until Jesus died and resurrected when his sins were completely washed away by Jesus' blood..
The Old testament looked forward to the day of pentecost. On that day Peter proclaimed the indwelling as the fulfillment of OT prophecy. He did not claim it had ever happened before, instead that it was new. Jesus told the disciples that the Spirit was WITH them while He was alive, but at pentecost the Spirit would be IN them. If it happened in the OT, nobody wrote about it. And since no one wrote about it, how did you deduce it?
 

Chalcedon

Well-known member
what would spiritual death mean for Adam, who did not have the Holy Spirit within him?
where does scripture say that adam did not have the Holy Spirit in him ?

what happened when God breathed into adam life ?

what happened when Jesus breathed into the disciples and said receive the Holy Spirit ?

hope this helps !!!
 

Chalcedon

Well-known member
The Old testament looked forward to the day of pentecost. On that day Peter proclaimed the indwelling as the fulfillment of OT prophecy. He did not claim it had ever happened before, instead that it was new. Jesus told the disciples that the Spirit was WITH them while He was alive, but at pentecost the Spirit would be IN them. If it happened in the OT, nobody wrote about it. And since no one wrote about it, how did you deduce it?
1 Peter 1:11 below regarding the O.T. Prophets. I will believe Gods word over what you have been taught to believe in the church all your life. Scripture is our Litmus test not the denomination you attend. The Bible is the Truth, Jesus is the Truth. Below is the Truth.

Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

hope this helps !!!
 

zerinus

Well-known member
Never heard that idea before. Are you saying that when God pulled back from them, they died?
It depends on how you define "spiritual". Do you believe there is such a thing as spiritual death, and if so how do you define it, and on what scriptural basis? For example Paul says, "For to be carnally minded is death; ..." (Rom. 8:6). He is obviously not referring to national death, but some other kind of death, which can best be called a spiritual death. So there is a kind of "death" which is not a natural death, but a spiritual death. Do you have a broad biblical definition for such a death, and if so what is it? I believe I have one, it is being cut off from the presence of God, which is what Adam experienced after the Fall. If eternal life is to know "the only true God" (John 17:3), then eternal death (spiritual death) is to not know the only true God. That I believe is the correct biblical definition. What is your definition of spiritual death, if it is different from mine?
 

CrowCross

Super Member
The Old testament looked forward to the day of pentecost. On that day Peter proclaimed the indwelling as the fulfillment of OT prophecy. He did not claim it had ever happened before, instead that it was new. Jesus told the disciples that the Spirit was WITH them while He was alive, but at pentecost the Spirit would be IN them. If it happened in the OT, nobody wrote about it. And since no one wrote about it, how did you deduce it?
I didn't have to deduce it....You simply dogmatically dismissed it.

Individuals of the OT had the Holy Spirit...not all, only Gods annoited. I see no objection as to whether or not Adam could have had the HS prior to the fall.
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
It depends on how you define "spiritual". Do you believe there is such a thing as spiritual death, and if so how do you define it, and on what scriptural basis? For example Paul says, "For to be carnally minded is death; ..." (Rom. 8:6). He is obviously not referring to national death, but some other kind of death, which can best be called a spiritual death. So there is a kind of "death" which is not a natural death, but a spiritual death. Do you have a broad biblical definition for such a death, and if so what is it? I believe I have one, it is being cut off from the presence of God, which is what Adam experienced after the Fall. If eternal life is to know "the only true God" (John 17:3), then eternal death (spiritual death) is to not know the only true God. That I believe is the correct biblical definition. What is your definition of spiritual death, if it is different from mine?
Probably we agree that the word "spiritual" as used in the Word has a variety of meanings depending on context. The ultimate spiritual death is the lake of fire. Aka the second death. The same as the word "spiritual" the word "death" has a variety of uses.
But I had never heard of the ban from Eden as a death. Perhaps in some way it could be talked about like that.
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
I didn't have to deduce it....You simply dogmatically dismissed it.

Individuals of the OT had the Holy Spirit...not all, only Gods annoited. I see no objection as to whether or not Adam could have had the HS prior to the fall.
Then are you saying that what happened at pentecost was not new?
 

zerinus

Well-known member
The Old testament looked forward to the day of pentecost. On that day Peter proclaimed the indwelling as the fulfillment of OT prophecy. He did not claim it had ever happened before, instead that it was new. Jesus told the disciples that the Spirit was WITH them while He was alive, but at pentecost the Spirit would be IN them. If it happened in the OT, nobody wrote about it. And since no one wrote about it, how did you deduce it?
That is not correct. People in the OT did have the Holy Ghost, and there are plenty of references to it in the Bible:

2 Peter 1:

19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
 

zerinus

Well-known member
Probably we agree that the word "spiritual" as used in the Word has a variety of meanings depending on context. The ultimate spiritual death is the lake of fire. Aka the second death. The same as the word "spiritual" the word "death" has a variety of uses.
But I had never heard of the ban from Eden as a death. Perhaps in some way it could be talked about like that.
So what do you think Paul had in mind when he said that "to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace" (Rom. 8:6). Where did that "deadness" of the carnal mind come from?
 
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