Did God Initially Create Adam With A Sin Nature?

Sethproton

Well-known member
That is not correct. People in the OT did have the Holy Ghost, and there are plenty of references to it in the Bible:

2 Peter 1:

19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
Being moved by the spirit is not the same as indwelt. Balaam;s donkey was moved by the spirit to talk, the donkey was not indwelt. The spirit can be moving in a person, without indwelling him. Movement can come and go, indwelling is forever.
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
So what do you think Paul had in mind when he said that "to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace" (Rom. 8:6).
the death from being carnally minded speaks about our lives on earth and how they will operate. I think we could agree that Biblically both words "life" and "death" have multiple contextural meanings. In Rom 8 they speak to the nature of our earthly experience.
 

Chalcedon

Well-known member
Being moved by the spirit is not the same as indwelt. Balaam;s donkey was moved by the spirit to talk, the donkey was not indwelt. The spirit can be moving in a person, without indwelling him. Movement can come and go, indwelling is forever.
except Peter declarers the SPIRIT of CHRIST was IN THEM- the prophets in the OT, not upon them.

since when is the Spirit IN THEM not dwelling ?
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
except Peter declarers the SPIRIT of CHRIST was IN THEM- the prophets in the OT, not upon them.

since when is the Spirit IN THEM not dwelling ?
Well back to Balaam's donkey. Was the donkey indwelt and born again?
Why is there no reference to anyone in the OT being born again?
 

zerinus

Well-known member
Being moved by the spirit is not the same as indwelt. Balaam;s donkey was moved by the spirit to talk, the donkey was not indwelt. The spirit can be moving in a person, without indwelling him. Movement can come and go, indwelling is forever.
That is putting quite a lot of spin on it. Have you read the book of Jeremiah, how he relentlessly prophesied to Israel the word of God all the day long, from morning until evening against all the odds, against relentless opposition and persecution for many years, until his prophecy was fulfilled and Jerusalem was destroyed? Do you think he could have done that without the permanent indwelling of the Holy Ghost? And Balaam's donkey was not "moved upon by the Holy Ghost" LOL! It says that God "opened the mouth" of the donkey. In other words, it was a straightforward miracle, like any other miracle performed by God.
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
That is putting quite a lot of spin on it. Have you read the book of Jeremiah, how he relentlessly prophesied to Israel the word of God all the day long, from morning until evening against all the odds, against relentless opposition and persecution for many years, until his prophecy was fulfilled and Jerusalem was destroyed? Do you think he could have done that without the permanent indwelling of the Holy Ghost? And Balaam's donkey was not "moved upon by the Holy Ghost" LOL! It says that God "opened the mouth" of the donkey. In other words, it was a straightforward miracle, like any other miracle performed by God.
Yes, I do think that Jeremiah could prophesy without being regenerated by the indwelling of Christ. God spoke to Jeremiah and Jeremiah spoke what God said. If a person cannot know truth before being regenerated, then no one would be able to respond to the truth and receive Christ. Jeremiah speaking truth once or 1000 times is not proof of regeneration. To the contrary Christ said that the Holy Spirit could not come until HE left. This "coming" was new.
 

CrowCross

Super Member
Yes, I am curious to see examples of a someone in the OT being regenerated by the Indwelling of Christ.
I noticed you kinda re-worded it....but here are several verses.

1 Sam 16:13 Then Samuel took the horn of oil and anointed him in the midst of his brothers. And the Spirit of the LORD rushed upon David from that day forward. And Samuel rose up and went to Ramah.

Numbers 27:18 So the LORD said to Moses, “Take Joshua the son of Nun, a man in whom is the Spirit, and lay your hand on him.

Numbers 11: 16Then the LORD said to Moses, “Bring Me seventy of the elders of Israel known to you as leaders and officers of the people. Bring them to the Tent of Meeting and have them stand there with you.

17And I will come down and speak with you there, and I will take some of the Spirit that is on you and put that Spirit on them. They will help you bear the burden of the people, so that you do not have to bear it by yourself.
 

zerinus

Well-known member
the death from being carnally minded speaks about our lives on earth and how they will operate. I think we could agree that Biblically both words "life" and "death" have multiple contextural meanings. In Rom 8 they speak to the nature of our earthly experience.
Where did that "nature" come from (however you want to define it), if not as a consequence of the fall of Adam?
 
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Chalcedon

Well-known member
Well back to Balaam's donkey. Was the donkey indwelt and born again?
Why is there no reference to anyone in the OT being born again?
like I said Christ in you(dwelling) is not the same as God speaking through a vessel of His choice.

So you are denying Peters inspired word that the Spirit of Christ was in the OT prophets correct ?

1 Peter 1:11
Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
 

zerinus

Well-known member
Yes, I do think that Jeremiah could prophesy without being regenerated by the indwelling of Christ. God spoke to Jeremiah and Jeremiah spoke what God said. If a person cannot know truth before being regenerated, then no one would be able to respond to the truth and receive Christ. Jeremiah speaking truth once or 1000 times is not proof of regeneration. To the contrary Christ said that the Holy Spirit could not come until HE left. This "coming" was new.
Now I know that you haven't read the book of Jeremiah! Jeremiah didn't just speak "truth once or 1000 times" LOL! Jeremiah was a great prophet who was in constant communion with God, was constantly receiving revelation from God, and every word that he spoke was moved upon and Inspired by the Holy Ghost.
 

zerinus

Well-known member
Yes, I am curious to see examples of a someone in the OT being regenerated by the Indwelling of Christ.
You have now moved the goalposts, from the indwelling of the Holy Ghost to the indwelling of Christ. But to answer your original question, does it have to actually use the word "regenerate," or is it enough for the right signals to be present for it to mean the same thing? How about this verse:

Deuteronomy 34:

9 And Joshua the son of Nun was full of the spirit of wisdom; for Moses had laid his hands upon him: and the children of Israel hearkened unto him, and did as the Lord commanded Moses.


If this does not signal the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit in Joshua, how else could it be understood?
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
I noticed you kinda re-worded it....but here are several verses.

1 Sam 16:13 Then Samuel took the horn of oil and anointed him in the midst of his brothers. And the Spirit of the LORD rushed upon David from that day forward. And Samuel rose up and went to Ramah.

Numbers 27:18 So the LORD said to Moses, “Take Joshua the son of Nun, a man in whom is the Spirit, and lay your hand on him.

Numbers 11: 16Then the LORD said to Moses, “Bring Me seventy of the elders of Israel known to you as leaders and officers of the people. Bring them to the Tent of Meeting and have them stand there with you.

17And I will come down and speak with you there, and I will take some of the Spirit that is on you and put that Spirit on them. They will help you bear the burden of the people, so that you do not have to bear it by yourself.
Yes I intentionally reworded it because the indwelling we are talking about is that which regenerates us. I am making the distinction that Jesus made in John 14:17 when Jesus told the disciples that the spirit was with them but would be in them.
Jesus spoke of pentecost where this would take place.
This was a change. Prior to this the disciples had been sent out in pairs to do miraculous works. They did these works without the indwelling Spirit, just as they did in the OT. The indwelling was new.

Your OT examples do show the presence and power of the spirit upon those men, but not the regeneration of the indwelling.
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
You have now moved the goalposts, from the indwelling of the Holy Ghost to the indwelling of Christ. But to answer your original question, does it have to actually use the word "regenerate," or is it enough for the right signals to be present for it to mean the same thing? How about this verse:

Deuteronomy 34:

9 And Joshua the son of Nun was full of the spirit of wisdom; for Moses had laid his hands upon him: and the children of Israel hearkened unto him, and did as the Lord commanded Moses.


If this does not signal the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit in Joshua, how else could it be understood?
I do not see this as a goalpost move. The NT refers to both as the same, being indwelt by Christ is the same as being indwelt by the Spirit. It regenerates us. And no, I do not need to see the word "regeneration" but I need to see word that means new life.
The passage in Deut fits in with what Jesus said in John 14:17. Just like the disciples the Spirit was with Joshua, but it was not till pentecost that the indwelling God would regenerate believers.
 

bigthinker

Well-known member
How do you know Adam wasn't indwelt by the Holy Spirit? I'm saying pre-fall.

Post fall I could agree. Was Adam born again? I would say yes. Adam tried to hide his sin with fig leaves...God said not that way and made him garments from an inncent animal that covered his sins until Jesus died and resurrected when his sins were completely washed away by Jesus' blood..
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
One reason that I doubt Adam was indwelt by God is that there is nothing in the OT that says He was. Or that it was even available before pentecost. Yes, the Spirit was in or upon people but it could be taken away. Another reason is that Joel prophesied the events surrounding the indwelling and called it last days.
 

Stephen

Active member
Thinking outside the box (Part 1)

I know this is an odd question, and your knee-jerk reaction is to answer with an emphatic NO... but consider this...

  • Does God have the natural “ability” to sin? By Definition, what God wills is not sin.
  • Was Adam made in the image of God? The man was. Meaning Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 use different language to describe the man and woman
  • Where did Adams “ability” to sin come from? Free will
  • Did God make Adam with the natural “ability” to sin? yes
  • So again... Did God Initially Create Adam With A Sin Nature... unlike God’s nature? Adam was created with, and died with, a human nature.

A few extra thought provoking questions on the subject.

  • What if we have been thinking about it all wrong? I believe so.
  • If we call it an “ability”... does it make God “less able” than man? Not really a sensible question
  • Why would God create us with an “ability” that He considers a negative thing not allowed in heaven? Because the love of deterministic robots is not love
  • What if it is actually a “disability” and God simply does not have the “disability” to sin? Not really a sensible question
  • Shouldn’t it be called a “disability” sense God does not have it? Not really a sensible question
  • If God created us with a natural “disability” what keeps us from being “totally disabled”? Using the knowledge of "Good" that Adam received from eating from the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil

I thought this would make for an interesting conversation.
What are you guys thoughts?

  • P.S. - If God is not “disabled”, does this mean Satan is “Totally Disabled”? Not really a sensible question

My thoughts are that Adam and his wife ate from the tree of the "knowledge of Good and Evil", not just the "knowledge of Evil".
 

Chalcedon

Well-known member
One reason that I doubt Adam was indwelt by God is that there is nothing in the OT that says He was. Or that it was even available before pentecost. Yes, the Spirit was in or upon people but it could be taken away. Another reason is that Joel prophesied the events surrounding the indwelling and called it last days.
what did it mean when God breathed into adam and he became a living soul ?

what did it mean when Jesus breathed into the disciples and said receive the Holy Spirit ?

Do you see any correlation/parallel in these passages ? why or why not

hope this helps !!!
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
A further thought. When God breathed life into Adam, I believe that points to the idea that Adam was made in God's image, as we all were. That was Adam's creation, not his regeneration.
When Jesus breathed on the disciples and told them to receive the Spirit, He was prophesying the day of pentecost as well as referencing what happened to Adam. The Father's breath is our birth; the Spirit's breath is our rebirth. And while I don't think it is quite that simple, there is a truth to that statement.
 
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