Did God Initially Create Adam With A Sin Nature?

brightfame52

Well-known member
You fail to understand. Adam was exactly what God made him to be, perfect, and neutral. He had no evil nature, he had no righteous nature, perfectly neutral. He could only do good, since the only law God had in the garden was to stay about from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. That's it. When Adam sinned, that sin corrupted his nature, and thus the sin nature of man was born. It is as simple as that. All of this was in keeping with God's plan, but we should not speculate any further than what scripture has provided. To do that, as you have, is to bring God into question, especially if you are very wrong. Just understand that Adam was not evil, had no evil nature in him when created, for he was created in the very image of God, so...I don't think you really want to go there. He walked with God, talked with God, he would have skewered the serpent. Yet, Eve is the one who met the serpent. The only thing that we can be sure of with how Genesis shares the tale, is that Adam sinned with both eyes open. He was not tempted by the serpent.
Sure Adam had a evil nature, that was made manifested by the temptation of Eve, she had the same nature Adam had, she came from him and they were one flesh. Thats why he ate from her, he was a evil man. If adam would have skewered the devil, why didnt he do that to his wife ? A Holy natured man would have rebuked his wife for the evil and abstained from it. If you say he did it because he loved eve, then that means he loved his wife more than God, which was a violation clearly of the 1 st commandment Matt 22 26-28

36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment.

That temptaion God of satan was a test of their Love to Him and they both failed Deut 13 3



thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the Lord your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

But their faiure and evil was unto a Holy Purpose of Redemption in Christ Jesus. Do you know what redemption is ?
 

armylngst

Well-known member
Sure Adam had a evil nature, that was made manifested by the temptation of Eve, she had the same nature Adam had, she came from him and they were one flesh. Thats why he ate from her, he was a evil man. If adam would have skewered the devil, why didnt he do that to his wife ? A Holy natured man would have rebuked his wife for the evil and abstained from it. If you say he did it because he loved eve, then that means he loved his wife more than God, which was a violation clearly of the 1 st commandment Matt 22 26-28
It is clear that you believe God created evil, since God created Adam and the nature within Adam, which you say was evil. I said it was neutral, not evil or righteous. He would have denied the serpent because of the time he spent with God, but Eve, she was different. She was the companion God made for Adam. Eve did not tempt Adam. She just handed the fruit to him, and he ate of it. The serpent was not involved. He chose his love for Eve, over God's command. At that moment, His nature fell and was corrupted. As the Bible clearly states in Genesis, their eyes were not open until after they bit into the fruit. There is a reason why Genesis even brings that up. That is to show that there was no evil in them until that moment.

I never said that Adam was righteous, I said he was neutral.
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment.

That temptaion God of satan was a test of their Love to Him and they both failed Deut 13 3



thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the Lord your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

But their faiure and evil was unto a Holy Purpose of Redemption in Christ Jesus. Do you know what redemption is ?
Adam did love God that way, but he also had Eve, a split loyalty. God created Eve to be Adam's companion and Adam accepted her fully. Adam and Eve were both neutral, neither good or evil, until they took of the fruit. Eve was tempted into taking the fruit, while Adam was not. He did not eat of the fruit because he was evil, he ate of the fruit because he was neutral and it could go either way. I believe if it had been the serpent, Adam would have walked away. I mean, what could the serpent have on Adam walking and talking heart to heart with His creator. Now Eve, on the other hand. She was his companion, made for him by God to make Adam complete. There is competition between God who he walked and talked with heart to heart, and Eve, whom he also walked and talked with heart to heart, and in whom he found perfection of himself. (Two halves become a whole.)

God did not create evil, Adam opened that door by his sin. (Or I believe it is Catholics who say Eve let sin into the world. The Bible is clear it was Adam, because it was Adam God gave dominion of the creation to, not Eve. Supposedly if Adam had not sinned, God would have destroyed Eve and created another companion, but we will never know.)
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
armyl

It is clear that you believe God created evil,

Of course He did, and that for a Holy Purpose in Christ !

since God created Adam and the nature within Adam, which you say was evil. I said it was neutral, not evil or righteous.

I dont think thats a biblical stance Neutral. Adams nature was either a good tree or evil tree Matt 7:17-18

Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.


A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

He would have denied the serpent because of the time he spent with God, but Eve, she was different.

Straw man, if that was true he would have denied eve for the same reason !

God did not create evil,

Sure He did Isa 45 7

I am the Lord, and there is none else.
7 I form the light, and create darkness:
I make peace, and create evil:
I the Lord do all these things.

Rev 4 11



Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

The serpent was not involved. He chose his love for Eve, over God's command.

Lol, that showed he was evil. He showed his love for eve over love to God, which is Idolatry, for he loved the creature more than his Creator !
 

CrowCross

Super Member
Sure He did Isa 45 7

I am the Lord, and there is none else.
7 I form the light, and create darkness:
I make peace, and create evil:
I the Lord do all these things

When you understand the form of poetry called parallelism you'll see evil is a bad translation because like light is opposite of darkness peace in not the opposite of evil.
 

Redeemed

Well-known member
The sin nature says we will sin. Adam didn't have to sin as he could have told the serpent to go away.

A disability says Adam will sin. No matter what. Adam had the ability to sin...just like the fallen angels. We have the disability because we are a fallen race.
Yup, before the Fall Adam was endowed with two possibilities: He had the ability to sin and the ability not to sin. After the Fall Adam had the ability to sin and the inability to not sin. The idea of the “inability to not” is a bit confusing to us because in English it’s a double negative. Augustine’s Latin formula was non posse non peccare. Stated another way, it means that after the Fall man was morally incapable of living without sin. The ability to live without sin was lost in the Fall. This moral inability is the essence of what we call original sin. That's the Reformed view.
 

Beloved Daughter

Super Member
Thinking outside the box (Part 1)

I know this is an odd question, and your knee-jerk reaction is to answer with an emphatic NO... but consider this...

Does God have the natural “ability” to sin?

Was Adam made in the image of God?

Where did Adams “ability” to sin come from?

Did God make Adam with the natural “ability” to sin?

So again... Did God Initially Create Adam With A Sin Nature... unlike God’s nature?


A few extra thought provoking questions on the subject.

What if we have been thinking about it all wrong?

If we call it an “ability”... does it make God “less able” than man?

Why would God create us with an “ability” that He considers a negative thing not allowed in heaven?

What if it is actually a “disability” and God simply does not have the “disability” to sin?

Shouldn’t it be called a “disability” sense God does not have it?

If God created us with a natural “disability” what keeps us from being “totally disabled”?


I thought this would make for an interesting conversation.
What are you guys thoughts?




P.S. - If God is not “disabled”, does this mean Satan is “Totally Disabled”?

The bottom line in this OP is: Did God know Adam would sin?
 

armylngst

Well-known member
armyl



Of course He did, and that for a Holy Purpose in Christ !
The only being that can create evil is a being that is evil. God is not evil, therefore God did not create evil. The Bible is very clear on the fact that God is not evil. God allowed evil, but did not create it. Evil is the absence of good. Remove good and what remains? Evil. It is impossible to remove good though, because then you would have to remove God.

I dont think thats a biblical stance Neutral. Adams nature was either a good tree or evil tree Matt 7:17-18
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Please, please oh please, don't spiritualize scripture. It's bad enough that Arminians twist scripture, then to have you also doing it.
ate the fruit.
Straw man, if that was true he would have denied eve for the same reason !
I think that is a strawman. Have you ever seen a man truly in love, capable of denying their wife? Don't interject yourself onto Adam. Stop assuming that because you believe you wouldn't react in the same way. YOu act as though Adam actually thought it all through in the split second that Eve handed him the fruit. He didn't think about it at all. He reacted based on the situation. He loved Eve, did not want to lose her, and so he reacted by biting into the fruit. He may have also loved the serpent, on a stick, with a little white wine sauce. The two are not comparable in Adam's situation as being the same. Adam could care less about the serpent, trying to deceive him into rejecting his creator. Eve on the other hand, that hits a lot closer to home.
Lol, that showed he was evil. He showed his love for eve over love to God, which is Idolatry, for he loved the creature more than his Creator !
That did not show he was evil. Now, if he thought about it first, thought of what God said, and then rejected that, it would be different. The Bible presents what Adam did as a reaction to Eve handing him the apple. God did not create evil, but allowed it to occur for the furthering of His will, and glory.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
The only being that can create evil is a being that is evil. God is not evil, therefore God did not create evil. The Bible is very clear on the fact that God is not evil. God allowed evil, but did not create it. Evil is the absence of good. Remove good and what remains? Evil. It is impossible to remove good though, because then you would have to remove God.


Please, please oh please, don't spiritualize scripture. It's bad enough that Arminians twist scripture, then to have you also doing it.
ate the fruit.

I think that is a strawman. Have you ever seen a man truly in love, capable of denying their wife? Don't interject yourself onto Adam. Stop assuming that because you believe you wouldn't react in the same way. YOu act as though Adam actually thought it all through in the split second that Eve handed him the fruit. He didn't think about it at all. He reacted based on the situation. He loved Eve, did not want to lose her, and so he reacted by biting into the fruit. He may have also loved the serpent, on a stick, with a little white wine sauce. The two are not comparable in Adam's situation as being the same. Adam could care less about the serpent, trying to deceive him into rejecting his creator. Eve on the other hand, that hits a lot closer to home.

That did not show he was evil. Now, if he thought about it first, thought of what God said, and then rejected that, it would be different. The Bible presents what Adam did as a reaction to Eve handing him the apple. God did not create evil, but allowed it to occur for the furthering of His will, and glory.
God created evil for a Holy Purpose in Christ Jesus. Adam was created according to that purpose in Christ. All things including Adam and Eve and the devil were created by Christ and for Christ. Col 1 16

For by him were all things created which are in heaven, and which are in earth, things visible and invisible: whether they be [q]Thrones, or Dominions, or Principalities, or Powers, all things were created by him, and for him.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Thinking outside the box (Part 1)

I know this is an odd question, and your knee-jerk reaction is to answer with an emphatic NO... but consider this...

Does God have the natural “ability” to sin?

Was Adam made in the image of God?

Where did Adams “ability” to sin come from?

Did God make Adam with the natural “ability” to sin?

So again... Did God Initially Create Adam With A Sin Nature... unlike God’s nature?


A few extra thought provoking questions on the subject.

What if we have been thinking about it all wrong?

If we call it an “ability”... does it make God “less able” than man?

Why would God create us with an “ability” that He considers a negative thing not allowed in heaven?

What if it is actually a “disability” and God simply does not have the “disability” to sin?

Shouldn’t it be called a “disability” sense God does not have it?

If God created us with a natural “disability” what keeps us from being “totally disabled”?


I thought this would make for an interesting conversation.
What are you guys thoughts?




P.S. - If God is not “disabled”, does this mean Satan is “Totally Disabled”?
Adam wasn't Created with a Sin Nature, he earned a Sin Nature. Adam was made Good; not Perfect. We tend to understand 'Good' as 'Perfect'. The Wages of Sin is Death, thus he earned Separation from God...
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Adam wasn't Created with a Sin Nature, he earned a Sin Nature. Adam was made Good; not Perfect. We tend to understand 'Good' as 'Perfect'. The Wages of Sin is Death, thus he earned Separation from God...
Adam was created natural and flesh. The flesh God created Adam with couldn't keep Gods Law for it was too weak, that right there is evil. Rom 8 3

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: Adams flesh at the beginning was weak and sinful. And when the commandment came, the sinful flesh acted, the temptong of eve ant the results of it, proved how sinful their flesh was that they were created with.


If they would have responded the way the Man Jesus Christ did during His temptation by the same devil, they would have been Perfect towards Gods Law as Christ was. God could have made Adam and Eve with a nature that was unable to sin if it was His Purpose to do so.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Adam was created natural and flesh. The flesh God created Adam with couldn't keep Gods Law for it was too weak, that right there is evil. Rom 8 3

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: Adams flesh at the beginning was weak and sinful. And when the commandment came, the sinful flesh acted, the temptong of eve ant the results of it, proved how sinful their flesh was that they were created with.


If they would have responded the way the Man Jesus Christ did during His temptation by the same devil, they would have been Perfect towards Gods Law as Christ was. God could have made Adam and Eve with a nature that was unable to sin if it was His Purpose to do so.
Jesus was the Second Adam, so the First Adam could have kept the Edenic Covenant. Jesus lived his life on a human level by suppressing the expression of his Divine Nature, so Jesus and Adam were fleshly equals...
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Jesus was the Second Adam, so the First Adam could have kept the Edenic Covenant. Jesus lived his life on a human level by suppressing the expression of his Divine Nature, so Jesus and Adam were fleshly equals...
The only thing you said that is scriptural is that Jesus was the second Adam, that He lived His Life on a human level. That He and Adam were fleshy equals is leaning towards blasphemy rev. And that adam could have kept the edenic covenant, which was a covenant of law/works is erroneous. Adams flesh was weak, and Christs wasnt.
 

Redeemed

Well-known member
So it looks like basically were talking about “The Fall” and who we can blame it on.

On the one hand, the fall was instigated by Satan’s malice and deception. From the beginning, the Bible makes clear that Satan has an implacable hostility toward God and an unending hatred for humanity. And he hasn’t stopped his work of deception and temptation.

On the other hand, the fall was also freely chosen by Adam and Eve. Satan’s line was as bold as it was false: “If you eat of this tree, then your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

Not content to merely created in His image; not content to have a mere relationship with God, walking with Him in the cool of the afternoon reflecting back to God His glory, Adam and Eve desired to be like God. They desired to be gods themselves. This was not simple disobedience. Pride was turning their hearts away from God before they ate from the tree. They bit into the lie (pun intended).

As the story continues, we recognize their desire as idolatry: the substitution of the creature for the Creator as the object of our loyalty, desire, and worship. That's what sin is, missing the mark. It's not some mere rule breaking.

As long as we think of sin as simple rule-breaking, we will never understand the enormity of sin, the incredible offense that it gives to God. But the good news is God had a plan. It's found in John 3:16. See... even as God was creating Adam he knew Jesus would shed his blood to save us from ourselves. From our sin nature. From our total depravity.

For an in-depth study on this topic take a look at:


Biblical Theology in the Life of the Church: A Guide for Ministry
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
On the other hand, the fall was also freely chosen by Adam and Eve. Satan’s line was as bold as it was false: “If you eat of this tree, then your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

This is the problem I have with Pelagianism, and even "free will".

If we are truly "slaves of sin" (for those who reject Rom. 6), and "dead in trespasses and sins" (Eph. 2:1, Col. 2:13), they argue that "it's not fair that we're punished if we don't have 'free will' to choose not to sin."

But such a person is saying that if they were in Adam's shoes, they would have made a "better" choice. Is it just me, or is that incredibly arrogant?
 

Redeemed

Well-known member
This is the problem I have with Pelagianism, and even "free will".

If we are truly "slaves of sin" (for those who reject Rom. 6), and "dead in trespasses and sins" (Eph. 2:1, Col. 2:13), they argue that "it's not fair that we're punished if we don't have 'free will' to choose not to sin."

But such a person is saying that if they were in Adam's shoes, they would have made a "better" choice. Is it just me, or is that incredibly arrogant?
Fallen man, said Augustine, has “free will” but lacks “liberty.” As Paul tells us were slaves to sin. That fallen man is “unable to not sin.” Jesus taught that man is powerless to come to him without divine aid. Before a person will ever choose Jesus, he must first be born again.

I don't think Adam could have made a better choice as far as eating from the tree goes. If he'd already fallen into sin because of his heart condition (idolatry) before God than he had already lost that ability. Free will is defined as “the ability to make choices according to our desires.” According to that definition the only choice he had would be the eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Because He believed the lie and his desire was to be a god.

I think anytime a human being starts trying to tell God how He should do things is guilty of being incredibly arrogant. It's in the Bible. Since God chose Adam that is the best choice.

When God chooses our representative, he does so perfectly. His choice is an infallible choice. When I choose my own representatives, I do so fallibly. Sometimes I select the wrong person and am then inaccurately represented. Adam represented me infallibly, not because he was infallible, but because God is infallible. Given God’s infallibility, I can never argue that Adam was a poor choice to represent me. RC Sproul

So the assumption some of us make when we struggle with the Fall is that, "If I been there, we would have made a better choice". I would not have made a decision that would plunge the world into ruin. Such an assumption is just not possible given the character of God. God doesn’t make mistakes. His choice of Adam as my representative is greater than my choice could ever be.
 

Redeemed

Well-known member
All Adam had to was trust God and it would've been all good. Same goes for us. We put our trust in our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and I guarantee you it's all good.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
All Adam had to was trust God and it would've been all good. Same goes for us. We put our trust in our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and I guarantee you it's all good.
Adam didnt know about Christ until after his sin. Then God revealed to the the seed of the woman. Do you know who that is ?
 
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