Did God Meticulously Determine The Crucifixion Of Christ?

Sketo

Sketo

Well-known member

Meticulous; Showing great attention to detail; very careful and precise.​




Act 2:22-23 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: Him, being delivered by the determinate (G3724) counsel (G1012) and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

(G3724) Strong
ὁρίζω
horizō
hor-id'-zo
From G3725; to mark out or bound (“horizon”), that is, (figuratively) to appoint, decree, specify: - declare, determine, limit, ordain.

(G1012) Strong
βουλή
boulē
boo-lay'
From G1014; volition, that is, (objectively) advice, or (by implication) purpose: - + advise, counsel, will

Act 4:27-28 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand (G5495) and thy counsel determined before (G4309) to be done.

(G5495) Strong
χείρ
cheir
khire
Perhaps from the base of G5494 in the sense of its congener the base of G5490 (through the idea of hollowness for grasping); the hand (literally or figuratively [power]; especially [by Hebraism] a means or instrument): - hand

(G4309) Strong
προορίζω
proorizō
pro-or-id'-zo
From G4253 and G3724; to limit in advance, that is, (figuratively) predetermine: - determine before, ordain, predestinate.

As you can see the answer to the OP’s question is an undeniable YES... that is unless you deny scripture itself!

Some say that...

if determination of all things is true how is equal ultimacy not also true
Click to expand...

If the above assumption is true then the only explanation for how God determined the crucifixion of Christ is “equal ultimacy” but I disagree!

Is “equal ultimacy” the only answer for how God determined the crucifixion of Christ?

Calvinism denies “equal ultimacy” is necessary because fallen man is not neutral!

The Calvinist doctrine of Total Depravity denies “equal ultimacy” and places the blame in the heart of fallen man!

But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this defiles a person. For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander. - Matthew 15:18-19

What are your thoughts?
 
T

TomFL

Guest
Sketo said:

Meticulous; Showing great attention to detail; very careful and precise.​




Act 2:22-23 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: Him, being delivered by the determinate (G3724) counsel (G1012) and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

(G3724) Strong
ὁρίζω
horizō
hor-id'-zo
From G3725; to mark out or bound (“horizon”), that is, (figuratively) to appoint, decree, specify: - declare, determine, limit, ordain.

(G1012) Strong
βουλή
boulē
boo-lay'
From G1014; volition, that is, (objectively) advice, or (by implication) purpose: - + advise, counsel, will

Act 4:27-28 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand (G5495) and thy counsel determined before (G4309) to be done.

(G5495) Strong
χείρ
cheir
khire
Perhaps from the base of G5494 in the sense of its congener the base of G5490 (through the idea of hollowness for grasping); the hand (literally or figuratively [power]; especially [by Hebraism] a means or instrument): - hand

(G4309) Strong
προορίζω
proorizō
pro-or-id'-zo
From G4253 and G3724; to limit in advance, that is, (figuratively) predetermine: - determine before, ordain, predestinate.

As you can see the answer to the OP’s question is an undeniable YES... that is unless you deny scripture itself!

Some say that...



If the above assumption is true then the only explanation for how God determined the crucifixion of Christ is “equal ultimacy” but I disagree!
Click to expand...
Totally false claim

What the argument was

If God is determining all things

and is determining all the actions of the reprobate as he is determining all the actions of the elect

How is that not equal ultimacy

The poster of the current op simply distorts the argument substituting the crucifixion of Christ in place of the determination of all things








enies “equal ultimacy” and places the blame in the heart of fallen man!
Sketo said:
But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this defiles a person. For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander. - Matthew 15:18-19

What are your thoughts?
Click to expand...
 
Septextura

Septextura

Well-known member
Amos 3:6
Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?


nh3fAcc.png
 
T

TomFL

Guest
Septextura said:
It's not the same.

davidtay81.wordpress.com

Is Double Predestination and Active Reprobation, Equal Ultimacy?

Question: R C Sproul claims that double predestination commits the fallacy of equal ultimacy. How do we refute this Biblically? Answer: Let us define some terms first for those unfamiliar with the …
davidtay81.wordpress.com davidtay81.wordpress.com
Click to expand...
I agree with RC Sproul

I do not find this convincing

Even “active reprobation” is not equal ultimacy. Let me explain:

Where “good” is concerned, God is both the decreer and active do-er in causing man to do good. (e.g. God decrees faith, and then actively grants faith so that man can believe. God decrees repentance, and the actively causes the regenerate person to have repentance. c.f. 2 Tim 2:25; Acts 16:14). In other words, God is both the primary/ultimate cause(decree) and secondary cause(do-er) of good things.

But where reprobation or evil things are concerned, God is the primary/ultimate cause (active reprobation), but he is not the do-er of the sinful act. In other words, God is the primary cause, but not the secondary cause of evil things. God does not tempt (James 1:13). But God led Jesus into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil (Matt 4:1). When we repeat the “Lord’s prayer” (Matt 6:13), “… lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil”, who are we praying to? Are we not praying to the Father not to lead us into temptation? But why pray such a prayer unless God does indeed decree that secondary agents tempt man according to the will and purpose of God.

Being the ultimate cause seems sufficient to me to establish equal ultimacy

God is the Ultimate cause of both

employing Secondary means does not change that
 
T

TomFL

Guest
Sketo said:
I believe you will find this genuinely very interesting...

www.desiringgod.org

The Will: Fettered Yet Free

In this message Sam Storms presents Edwards's argument that libertarian freedom and core Calvinistic doctrines are mutually exclusive.
www.desiringgod.org www.desiringgod.org
Click to expand...

No comment ?

I agree with RC Sproul

I do not find this convincing

Even “active reprobation” is not equal ultimacy. Let me explain:

Where “good” is concerned, God is both the decreer and active do-er in causing man to do good. (e.g. God decrees faith, and then actively grants faith so that man can believe. God decrees repentance, and the actively causes the regenerate person to have repentance. c.f. 2 Tim 2:25; Acts 16:14). In other words, God is both the primary/ultimate cause(decree) and secondary cause(do-er) of good things.

But where reprobation or evil things are concerned, God is the primary/ultimate cause (active reprobation), but he is not the do-er of the sinful act. In other words, God is the primary cause, but not the secondary cause of evil things. God does not tempt (James 1:13). But God led Jesus into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil (Matt 4:1). When we repeat the “Lord’s prayer” (Matt 6:13), “… lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil”, who are we praying to? Are we not praying to the Father not to lead us into temptation? But why pray such a prayer unless God does indeed decree that secondary agents tempt man according to the will and purpose of God.

Being the ultimate cause seems sufficient to me to establish equal ultimacy

God is the Ultimate cause of both

employing Secondary means does not change that


PS I deny Compatibilist meaning of free

'Having determined desires and and an inability to do anything other is not freedom
 
Sketo

Sketo

Well-known member
TomFL said:
Totally false claim

What the argument was

If God is determining all things

and is determining all the actions of the reprobate as he is determining all the actions of the elect

How is that not equal ultimacy

The poster of the current op simply distorts the argument substituting the crucifixion of Christ in place of the determination of all things
Click to expand...

The verses in the OP above clearly show that God determined the crucifixion of Christ... and TomFL claims “How is that not equal ultimacy”?

TomFL charges God of “equal ultimacy” in the crucifixion of Christ!

Why do you, TomFL, insist that God determining the crucifixion of Christ can not be any other way but through “equal ultimacy”?

Why does TomFL say that God can not determine a sinful act without the need for “equal ultimacy”?

Calvinism affirms that God can determine the sinful act of the crucifixion of Christ without the need for “equal ultimacy”!
 
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T

TomFL

Guest
Sketo said:
The verses in the OP above clearly show that God determined the crucifixion of Christ... and TomFL claims “How is that not equal ultimacy”?

TomFL charges God of “equal ultimacy” in the crucifixion of Christ!

Why do you, TomFL, insist that God determining the crucifixion of Christ can not be any other way but through “equal ultimacy”?

Why does TomFL say that God can not determine a sinful act without the need for “equal ultimacy”?

Calvinism affirms that God can determine the sinful act of the crucifixion of Christ without the need for “equal ultimacy”!
Click to expand...

How is you consistently seek to substitute the crucifixion of Christ for a redemptive purpose with You belief in God's determining all that man thinks. desires and does

One is not the other

And your claim is therefore is disingenuous;

not only because Tom never mentioned the crucifixion but also because you know

Tom has denied the idea that God determined the desire to kill Christ and of which you have no proof.

Is misrepresentation the best that you can do to answer what was asked ?
 
Sketo

Sketo

Well-known member
TomFL said:
How is you consistently seek to substitute the crucifixion of Christ for a redemptive purpose with You belief in God's determining all that man thinks. desires and does

One is not the other

And your claim therefore is disingenuous;

not only because Tom never mentioned the crucifixion but also because you know

Tom has denied the idea that God determined the desire to kill Christ.

Is misrepresentation the best that you can do to answer what was asked ?
Click to expand...

Stay consistent Tom! You claim all determinism is “equal ultimacy”!

The OP verses say God determined the crucifixion of Christ!

Are you now “flip-flopping” to God can determine a sinful act, like the crucifixion of Christ, and it not be through “equal ultimacy”?

Make up your mind Tom!

Calvinism affirms that God can determine the sinful act of the crucifixion of Christ without the need for “equal ultimacy”!
 
T

TomFL

Guest
Sketo said:
Stay consistent Tom! You claim all determinism is “equal ultimacy”!

The OP verses say God determined the crucifixion of Christ!

Are you now “flip-flopping” to God can determine a sinful act, like the crucifixion of Christ, and it not be through “equal ultimacy”?

Make up your mind Tom!

Calvinism affirms that God can determine the sinful act of the crucifixion of Christ without the need for “equal ultimacy”!
Click to expand...
What I stated was If God determines all of the reprobates thoughts , desires and deeds just as he does the elect how is that not equal ultimacy

I never stated if God determines one act that is proof of equal ultimacy

Your claim remains disingenuous

I can only assume you are unable to address the question as it was presented
 
Sketo

Sketo

Well-known member
TomFL said:
What I stated was If God determines all of the reprobates thoughts , desires and deeds just as he does the elect how is that not equal ultimacy

I never stated if God determines one act that is proof of equal ultimacy
Click to expand...

So your saying...

if God determines all its “equal ultimacy”

but

if God determines one it’s not “equal ultimacy”

???

How does that work Tom?
 
T

TomFL

Guest
Sketo said:
So your saying...

if God determines all its “equal ultimacy”

but

if God determines one it’s not “equal ultimacy”

???

How does that work Tom?
Click to expand...


Are you ever going to address the issue as it was presented

Instead of diverting by first distortion the question

and now by questioning the question
 
T

TomFL

Guest
Sketo said:
Are you ever going to acknowledge the fact that Gods determination of the crucifixion of Christ is not “equal ultimacy”
Click to expand...
Are you ever going to stop your effort to divert from the question which was asked

It did not concern the crucifixion

So why this deliberate effort to divert

noted previously here below

What the argument was

If God is determining all things

and is determining all the actions of the reprobate as he is determining all the actions of the elect

How is that not equal ultimacy

The poster of the current op simply distorts the argument substituting the crucifixion of Christ in place of the determination of all things

and so he constantly diverts
 
Sketo

Sketo

Well-known member
TomFL said:
What the argument was

If God is determining all things

and is determining all the actions of the reprobate as he is determining all the actions of the elect

How is that not equal ultimacy
Click to expand...

And my point is if you claim all determining is necessarily “equal ultimacy” then in order for you to remain consistent you, TomFL, must also claim that any one determined act of sin must also be considered “equal ultimacy”... if TomFL is consistent that is!

Do you, TomFL, still hold that all determined acts of sin are through “equal ultimacy”?

“Are you ever going to stop your effort to divert from this question which was asked”... TomFL

The OP clearly proves that God determined the crucifixion of Christ!

You have two options TomFL...

1) Deny your claim that all determinism is “equal ultimacy”

2) Be consistent and accept “the determined crucifixion of Christ” is included in your “all determinism is equal ultimacy” error
 
T

TomFL

Guest
Sketo said:
And my point is if you claim all determining is necessarily “equal ultimacy” then in order for you to remain consistent you, TomFL, must also claim that any one determined act of sin must also be considered “equal ultimacy”... if TomFL is consistent that is!

Do you, TomFL, still hold that all determined acts of sin are through “equal ultimacy”?

“Are you ever going to stop your effort to divert from this question which was asked”... TomFL

The OP clearly proves that God determined the crucifixion of Christ!

You have two options TomFL...

1) Deny your claim that all determinism is “equal ultimacy”

2) Be consistent and accept “the determined crucifixion of Christ” is included in your “all determinism is equal ultimacy” error
Click to expand...
Sorry that is just a non sequitur

One example or one instances can not be substituted for all

In other words even if it were an example of determination of their desires (it is not) it would not be comparaible to all the determination of righteous desire the elect receive

One does not equal all

Sorry your argument is obviously defective

So will you stop running from the question


If God is determining all things

and is determining all the actions of the reprobate as he is determining all the actions of the elect

How is that not equal ultimacy
 
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