Did God Predestine Me To Add This Thread?

[Theo1689]

Free in the sense that I have two options to choose from and I can truly choose either one.

Where does the Bible teach that you must be "truly" able to choose either one?

Suppose there is a sea gull in a parking lot. It sees some discarded french fries about 10 feet away. The bird can either walk to the fries, or fly the short distance. The bird chooses to walk. Unbeknownst to the bird, one of its wings had just broken, so it wasn't able to fly. Does his inability to fly make his "choice" to walk, not a true "choice"?

 

[Reformedguy]

Knowing what I will choose is not the same as predetermining my choice because then it’s not actually a choice.

Irrelevant to my point. A choice known ahead of time is not a choice at all. You cannot choose otherwise. If you believe God is omniscient your alleged free will is a illusion.

 

[Theo1689]

Knowing what I will choose is not the same as predetermining my choice because then it’s not actually a choice.

So who is in control of the things that are "chosen" to happen on Earth, God or man?
The Creator, or the creature?

If everything that happens is based on man's "choices", and not on God's sovereignty, then what is the point in giving GOD glory for anything, rather than man who "made the right choices"?

You remind me of James Stewart's prayer of grace in Shenandoah:

"Lord, we cleared this land. We plowed it, sowed it, and harvest it. We cook the harvest. It wouldn't be here and we wouldn't be eating it if we hadn't done it all ourselves. We worked dog-bone hard for every crumb and morsel, but we thank you Lord just the same for the food we're about to eat, amen."

 

[Sketo]

Knowing what I will choose is not the same as predetermining my choice…

Unless your “choice” preexisted God’s knowing then this statement can not apply to God.

You as a creature can know things you have nothing to do with because you are not the Creator of all things… therefore you being able to know something that you have nothing to do with only proves that you are not God!

…because then it’s not actually a choice.

God created you when, where, and how you would exist… does that therefore mean that you are not “you”?

 

[JNelson]

Yes, but Scripture doesn't say God merely "knows what [you] will choose".
It talks about "predestining" PEOPLE.

You're engaging in rationalization and assumption, rather than simply believing Scripture.

Everyone rationalizes because God made us and gave us that ability.

1) Where does Scripture teach that we "choose to believe"?

“I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live,” Deut. 30:19

2) Why does there need to be two "possible" alternatives, for you to willingly "choose" (ie. select) the one you did?

Because if there isn’t two possibilities then it’s not a choice

 

[JNelson]

No Jesus could not of sinned nor choose anything contrary to the Father.

If could not have sinned then he wasn’t truly human and his life was just an act, a charade

We call it Impeccability . Later today we will be digging deeper into the Trinity.

Call it what you want but it just isn’t biblical.

I’m stuck for the time being at Verizon

Hope it goes well. Good luck!!

 

[Sketo]

Everyone rationalizes because God made us and gave us that ability.

It is irrational, and illogical, to assume that the same God who knows everything, immutably , before creation is also the same God who can “give” the ability to do “other than” what he knows after creation!

God’s omniscience, before creation, is incompatible with creatures “ability to do otherwise” after creation… one of them has to be denied!

The Open Theist denies the biblical (God’s Omniscience) in order to hold to the unbiblical (ability to do otherwise)!

I recommend holding to the biblical!

“I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live,” Deut. 30:19

This verse says nothing about weather the “choice made” was determined by God or not therefore it fails to prove your position!

You can assume what you want into this verse but you can not prove anything from this verse.

 

[JNelson]

Where does the Bible teach that you must be "truly" able to choose either one?

Suppose there is a sea gull in a parking lot. It sees some discarded french fries about 10 feet away. The bird can either walk to the fries, or fly the short distance. The bird chooses to walk. Unbeknownst to the bird, one of its wings had just broken, so it wasn't able to fly. Does his inability to fly make his "choice" to walk, not a true "choice"?

The word choice means “an act of selecting or making a decision when faced with two or more possibilities.”
If there isn’t really a second possibility then it’s not a choice. God constantly commands us many things and we can chose to obey him or not.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

I'm saying something like that, but not exactly. I use Jesus as an example. He said, 'Father take this Cup from me; yet not my Will but your Will be done'. I think Jesus could have freely chosen against the Will of God for his Life, but perish the thought. So I think the same principle applies to the Providence of God in your life, and your own personal providence for your life...

These two Wills always flow Concurrently without mixing...

If Jesus had NO CHOICES, then He was NEVER tempted in every respect AS WE ARE. And Temptation starts with OUR OWN LUST.

 

[ReverendRV]

If Jesus had NO CHOICES, then He was NEVER tempted in every respect AS WE ARE. And Temptation starts with OUR OWN LUST.

I guess it must be true that Jesus had choices; thanks...

 

[eternomade]

God, Planed, Purposed, and Determined all things that come to pass in creation, before creation, and this “all things” includes sin.

Like the “Author” of everything that is Planed, Purposed, Determined about his book before his book exists.

God is the “Author” of sin on the Transcendent Level as Creator Sustainer!

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When people say “God is not the Author of sin” they should only be referring to God as not the direct cause, on the Storyline level, of the sinful actions of men.

On the Storyline Level God is not the direct cause of sin in the same way that he IS the direct cause of the righteous acts of the Elect, by the Holy Spirit.

---

To say that God is not the “Author” of sin AT ALL is to suggest that some other Ultimate power brought something into existence out of nothing and this would suggest the heresy of Dualism!

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Also, people falsely assume that “sin” is a created thing but “sin” is not created by man or by God… “sin” is merely a description of an action that breaks a law.

I agree with everything you said.

 

[eternomade]

I guess it must be true that Jesus had choices; thanks...

This reminds me of Slick vs Hernandez debate. Slick came up with a great argument "Did Jesus have free will?" and used the hypostatic union to prove that a human had free will🤣

I felt they were both saying the same thing with different words. I kept agreeing with both of them.

 

[ReverendRV]

This reminds me of Slick vs Hernandez debate. Slick came up with a great argument "Did Jesus have free will?" and used the hypostatic union to prove that a human had free will🤣

I felt they were both saying the same thing with different words. I kept agreeing with both of them.

I argue for something like that, but not a Will that's That Free...

 

[His clay]

Knowing what I will choose is not the same as predetermining my choice because then it’s not actually a choice.

The post being responded to is now quoted. "So how is it you actually have a choice the second it's made if it's known ahead of time? Can you choose other than God knows your going to choose?" The issue being raised is not whether knowing or predetermining are the same. The issue being raised is whether God's certain knowledge of human action and human "ability to do otherwise" are compatible. JNelson, you have failed to address the issue raised. Thus, your response was a red herring fallacy.

 

[Theo1689]

Everyone rationalizes because God made us and gave us that ability.

Everyone sins because God made us and gave us that ability.
That doesn't mean that it's a good thing to do.

“I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live,” Deut. 30:19

I don't see anything there about "choosing to believe".
And if it were that important a doctrine, don't you think it would be found at least quite a few times in the NT?

Because if there isn’t two possibilities then it’s not a choice

Yeah, you keep saying that.
Are you trying to brainwash me?

Is this supposed to be "proof by repeated assertion"?

 

[Theo1689]

The word choice means “an act of selecting or making a decision when faced with two or more possibilities.”
If there isn’t really a second possibility then it’s not a choice. God constantly commands us many things and we can chose to obey him or not.

Yeah, you keep assuming your theology.
I'm not impressed.

 

[His clay]

The word choice means “an act of selecting or making a decision when faced with two or more possibilities.”
If there isn’t really a second possibility then it’s not a choice. God constantly commands us many things and we can chose to obey him or not.

Perceptual possibility and ultimate ontological possibility are two different things. The first is completely compatible with predetermination; the second is not.

Perceptual possibility is simply saying that people are limited to their perceptions as they make choices; this is a subjective possibility. The potential choices are "possible" in the sense in which people perceive different objects of choice before the choice is made. Hence, before the choice is made both are perceived as possible.

Ultimate ontological possibility speaks to ontology or human nature itself. It would propose that human nature or choicemaking is causeless (ontologically arbitrary), and therefore a choice is possible because nothing determines it to be thus and not otherwise.

Scripture directly contradicts the second view of possibility. We are not enteral. We are dependent creatures with beginnings. We need God's sustaining hand moment-by-moment, and thusly there is no such thing as ontologically arbitrary (i.e. chance) events.

Process of elimination lands me in the former and not the latter.

Further, the very process of choice-making involves determination (ontologically considered). To choose is to prefer, as Edwards put it long ago.

 

[shnarkle]

How many of every single choice we make daily does God predestine?

The only context I'm aware of that explicitly talks about this is Romans 8 which is in relation to those whom God predestines to conform to the image of his son so this only applies to them. If that's the case, then every single choice made is predestined.

If it isn't the case, then it isn't exactly clear if it even matters.

I would say that if it isn't the case, then whatever may be foreknown must be predestined, but it isn't clear it is necessarily predestined by God. It may be just part of Paul's logic. In other words, whatever may be foreknown must necessarily be predestined, yet it isn't necessary that God predestine whatever is foreknown, but only that it be predestined. If it isn't predestined, then it can't be foreknown.

 

[JNelson]

It is irrational, and illogical, to assume that the same God who knows everything, immutably , before creation is also the same God who can “give” the ability to do “other than” what he knows after creation!

God’s omniscience, before creation, is incompatible with creatures “ability to do otherwise” after creation… one of them has to be denied!

The Open Theist denies the biblical (God’s Omniscience) in order to hold to the unbiblical (ability to do otherwise)!

I recommend holding to the biblical!

How is knowing beforehand the same as causing it to happen?
Could God have chosen to use someone other than Paul to reach the gentiles?

This verse says nothing about weather the “choice made” was determined by God or not therefore it fails to prove your position!

You can assume what you want into this verse but you can not prove anything from this verse.

If the choice was not for them to make then why did God give an imperative to choose if they don’t actually have a choice?

 

[JNelson]

The post being responded to is now quoted. "So how is it you actually have a choice the second it's made if it's known ahead of time? Can you choose other than God knows your going to choose?" The issue being raised is not whether knowing or predetermining are the same. The issue being raised is whether God's certain knowledge of human action and human "ability to do otherwise" are compatible. JNelson, you have failed to address the issue raised. Thus, your response was a red herring fallacy.

Then why don’t you explain how it’s not compatible?

Honestly, this is just getting into philosophical speculation, the Bible tells us that we make choices and it warns against bad choices. We read scriptures like Proverbs to gain wisdom and make the correct choices in life so it’s more than clear we do have legitimate choices.