Did God Predestine Me To Add This Thread?

[JNelson]

Everyone sins because God made us and gave us that ability.
That doesn't mean that it's a good thing to do.

I agree but are really telling me that we should rationalize anything? Are we never to use reason?

I don't see anything there about "choosing to believe".
And if it were that important a doctrine, don't you think it would be found at least quite a few times in the NT?

Any imperative to believe is proof we have a choice and that’s exactly what Paul and Silas told the jailer, “Believe (imperative) in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved”

Yeah, you keep saying that.

Are you trying to brainwash me?

Is this supposed to be "proof by repeated assertion"?

Brainwash you, really??

 

[JNelson]

Yeah, you keep assuming your theology.
I'm not impressed.

And you don’t assume yours??

 

[JNelson]

Perceptual possibility and ultimate ontological possibility are two different things. The first is completely compatible with predetermination; the second is not.

Perceptual possibility is simply saying that people are limited to their perceptions as they make choices; this is a subjective possibility. The potential choices are "possible" in the sense in which people perceive different objects of choice before the choice is made. Hence, before the choice is made both are perceived as possible.

Ultimate ontological possibility speaks to ontology or human nature itself. It would propose that human nature or choicemaking is causeless (ontologically arbitrary), and therefore a choice is possible because nothing determines it to be thus and not otherwise.

Scripture directly contradicts the second view of possibility. We are not enteral. We are dependent creatures with beginnings. We need God's sustaining hand moment-by-moment, and thusly there is no such thing as ontologically arbitrary (i.e. chance) events.

Process of elimination lands me in the former and not the latter.

Further, the very process of choice-making involves determination (ontologically considered). To choose is to prefer, as Edwards put it long ago.

This is just philosophical speculation and it’s not found in scriptures. Where does God ever say our choices are perceptual possibilities?
Does God cause certain to happen? Yes, he most definitely does. Does that mean we can’t make choices? No, of course not. Both can exist together.
Jesus said the greatest commandments are to love God with all our mind, heart and strength and to love your neighbors like yourself. We choose daily whether or not we do this just like Jesus chose daily to love God and his neighbor.

 

[JNelson]

The only context I'm aware of that explicitly talks about this is Romans 8 which is in relation to those whom God predestines to conform to the image of his son so this only applies to them. If that's the case, then every single choice made is predestined.

If it isn't the case, then it isn't exactly clear if it even matters.

I would say that if it isn't the case, then whatever may be foreknown must be predestined, but it isn't clear it is necessarily predestined by God. It may be just part of Paul's logic. In other words, whatever may be foreknown must necessarily be predestined, yet it isn't necessary that God predestine whatever is foreknown, but only that it be predestined. If it isn't predestined, then it can't be foreknown.

I don’t see how every single choice is predestined if God gives us choices.

 

[Sketo]

How is knowing beforehand the same as causing it to happen?

No one said that God’s “knowing beforehand” alone causes “x”!

Because, unlike a mere creature knowing, we are talking about God’s knowing as the Creator, Sustainer and Planer, Purposer, Determiner of all things in existence.

You fail to acknowledge that God’s perfect knowledge [includes] God’s own “actions”!

God’s foreknowledge IS God’s perfect knowledge of the results of his own actions!

If God perfectly knows that “x” is THE [result] of his own action “a”, then by doing “a”, he IS determining His “perfectly known” [result] “x”!

Could God have chosen to use someone other than Paul to reach the gentiles?

“The LORD has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble.” (Pro 16:4)

“Everything” had a “purpose” before it was “made” therefore God “could” have determined a different “purpose” before he “made” anything.

Paul was “made for his purpose”!

“In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,” (Eph 1:11)

If the choice was not for them to make then why did God give an imperative to choose if they don’t actually have a choice?

They had “choice”, one purposed by God before they were “made”, and the rest were hypothetical choices.

God “giving an imperative” is a part of the predetermined means to God’s purposed end.

Remember God already knows the results of his own action of “giving the imperative” therefore by “giving the imperative” he is determining His “perfectly known” result!

The only alternative is to assume God did not know the result of his “giving the imperative”… but I don’t recommend this path.

 

[Theo1689]

The word choice means “an act of selecting or making a decision when faced with two or more possibilities.”
If there isn’t really a second possibility then it’s not a choice.

The definition you gave (and you didn't even give a source) said, "two or more possibilities".

It did NOT say, "one must be able to choose either possibility".
That is your (unBiblical) ASSUMPTION).

God constantly commands us many things and we can chose to obey him or not.

Sorry, that's simply not Biblical.
Please quote the verse that allegedly says, "we can choose to obey him".
And when you go to "rationalization" rather than SCRIPTURE, that's an admission that your position isn't Biblical.

 

[Carbon]

How many of every single choice we make daily does God predestine?

Huh, you don’t know either?

 

[Predestined]

No Jesus could not of sinned nor choose anything contrary to the Father.

We call it Impeccability . Later today we will be digging deeper into the Trinity.

I’m stuck for the time being at Verizon

Where is this digging deeper into the Trinity going to take place? I want to make sure I don't miss it.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

How many of every single choice we make daily does God predestine?

Chuckle!!! Which "Theologically Authoritative version" would you like????
What IS SURE is that He knew you were gonna do it before you even knew that you were going to.

Foreknowledge, is different than predestination.

 

[Theo1689]

I agree but are really telling me that we should rationalize anything? Are we never to use reason?

I'm assuming that your question is that "we should NOT rationalize anything". And it's a good question. But here is the answer.

1) We should make sure we MAXIMIZE Scripture, and MINIMALIZE "rationalization". Over the decades, I have seen that the cause of just about all heresy is when people being "rationalizing" over accepting Scripture.

2) We need to understand the difference between formal, sound logic (ie. "reason"), and what people ASSUME "makes sense" (and call, "reason"). The vast majority of what heretics call "reason" is nothing more than, "It sounds good to me".

Scripture teaches:

Prov. 14:12 There is a way that seems right to a man,
but its end is the way to death.

Prov. 16:25 There is a way that seems right to a man,
but its end is the way to death.

Any imperative to believe is proof we have a choice and that’s exactly what Paul and Silas told the jailer, “Believe (imperative) in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved”

Wrong again.
Paul never taught any such thing.

Paul did NOT teach, "you have the ABILITY to believe or not to believe".
You are simply ASSUMING that, and you are calling that assumption, "reason", which it is not.

1) "faith" is a GIFT given by God (Eph. 2:8, Phil. 1:29, Rom. 12:3, 2 Pet. 1:1, 1 Cor. 4:7, etc. etc.) Someone cannot "believe", if they are not GIVEN the gift of believing, by God.

2) John 6:44 teaches, "NO MAN CAN COME to me, unless the Father who sent me draw him." "Coming" in John 6 is equivalent and synonymous with "believing":

John 6:35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life;
whoever comes to me shall not hunger,
and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.

So no one can "come" (ie. "believe") unless the Father draws them. Those who are not drawn, cannot come ("believe"). They can't make that "choice".

3) Once again, since I pointed out to you last time, the Bible NEVER speaks of "choosing to believe".

4) "Believing" is something that is arguably pleasing to God. Yet Rom. 8:7-8 says that the natural man "cannot please God". So that means the natural man must not have the ability to believe.

And yes, there is some "logic" in my presentation. But it is different from your arbitrary and baseless claims that "it makes sense", my logic is based on objective premises and conclusions which can be discussed:

P1) The natural man cannot please God.
P2) Believing is pleasing to God.
C1) Therefore, the natural man is unable to believe.

Brainwash you, really??

Yes, "really".
You may as well know now, I don't kid, and I don't play games.
If I make a statement, it is "really".

When you make baseless assertions over and over and over again, and expect people to blindly accept them, and keep repeating the same baseless claims over and over again, that's attempted brainwashing.

 

[Theo1689]

And you don’t assume yours??

Wow.
What a rude assumption to make.
You've never met me, you don't know anything about me, yet you simply ASSUME (without learning anything about me) that I simply "assume" my beliefs?

No, I don't.
I hold to "sola Scriptura".

That's why I can quote SCRIPTURE for every belief I assert, rather than simply responding, "Duh, well it seems to make sense to me, so let's go with that".

 

[Carbon]

How many of every single choice we make daily does God predestine?

I always thought it funny for people to ask questions like this.
Perhaps I’m behind on reading or understanding scripture on this subject?
But personally I don’t think it makes much of a difference or affect if we choose to walk to the store or drive. Or if we choose to read scripture or the news.
I tend to look at it according to the divine providence of God.
If for example, you decided to walk to the store instead of drive, why did you decide to walk? Maybe you needed the exorcise, maybe it was a beautiful day and you wanted to get out? Does it really matter? It’s what you chose to do.
Perhaps God planned it that you walk and meet someone that you may share the gospel with. You may look at it as, I’m so glad I decided to walk or I may never of had this opportunity.
God, in His providence made that appointment. However your life was effected for you to decide to walk is part of God’s secret council.
For some reason, you were influenced or compelled to walk, and not drive.

Our wills and choices are governed by something. Hence: divine providence.

In cases where choices really don’t seem to make a difference, it might for God’s plan, or it might not and therefore have no effect according to His plan.

 

[Theo1689]

Does God cause certain to happen? Yes, he most definitely does. Does that mean we can’t make choices? No, of course not. Both can exist together.

Yes, but we don't "determine" our choices.
GOD does.

You seem to want to ASSUME that you have mental control over your choices. But this is not Scriptural.

In Gen. 50:20, Scripture teaches that God determined that Joseph's brothers would sell him into slavery in Egypt. They had no control over that. They weren't able to "choose otherwise". God determined it. But the brothers had the "willful assent" to do what they did.

In Isa. 10:5-7, Scripture teaches that God wielded Assyria like a club to attack Israel. Assyria had no "choice" in the matter, no more than a "club" has choice in an attacker's hand. God determined it. But Assyria had "willful assent" to do what they did, even though they could not (and did not want to) do otherwise.

In Acts 4:27-28, Scripture teaches that God determined that the Jews and the Romans would crucify Jesus. They had no "choice" in the matter. God determined it. But the Jews and Romans had "willful" assent to do what they did, they weren't forced to do it, they did so willingly and gladly. But they could not "choose" to do otherwise.

You might not be aware of this, but there is a centuries-old argument about whether "command implies ability". Pelagius (the bad guy) thought that "command implies ability". Augustine (the good guy) believed command does NOT imply ability. Pelagius took issue with a writing by Augustine which read:

"Grant what thou commandest,
and then command what thou wilt."

But a prime example of command NOT implying ability is found right in the very pages of Scripture. God commanded the Jews to obey the Mosaic Law (the command), yet in Rom. 3:19-20 Paul writes of their (and our) INABILITY to do so.

God made a command we are unable to do.

Jesus said the greatest commandments are to love God with all our mind, heart and strength and to love your neighbors like yourself.

That is Biblically true.

We choose daily whether or not we do this just like Jesus chose daily to love God and his neighbor.

That is technically true, but false in the sense that you seem to understand it.

It's true technically, in that EVERYONE chooses NOT to love God, unless God gives us the grace to love Him.

And no, we are NOT "just like Jesus".
Jesus is God. We are not.
We are wretched sinners, hateful rebels against God, dead in our trespasses and sins, unless God regenerates us to become children of God.

 

[Sketo]

Foreknowledge, is different than predestination.

Remember again we are referring to Gods knowledge, when only God existed, before there was anything outside of God that could have possibly determined his knowledge.

Therefore God’s knowledge can not be Grounded in anything that unfolded in time because no part of “creation” preexisted creation… and no part of creation preexisted God’s knowledge!

---

If Gods knowledge is dependent on any [created] creature’s “Action”, then Logically God must FIRST create that creature in order for God to know the action!

In Freewill God’s knowledge requires creature’s action, determined by creature, “in time”, after creation… therefore, in the “freewill” model, creation must necessarily preexist God’s knowledge and foreknowledge is reduced to knowledge gained from “time”.

---

In Calvinism God knows, when only he existed, independent from time, creation, creature, and creature actions… because God is the Planner, Purposer, Determiner, and Sustainer of everything that unfolds after Creation “in time”!


Colossians 1:16-17
For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.

And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Remember again we are referring to Gods knowledge, when only God existed, before there was anything outside of God that could have possibly determined his knowledge.

Therefore God’s knowledge can not be Grounded in anything that unfolded in time because no part of “creation” preexisted creation… and no part of creation preexisted God’s knowledge!

---

If Gods knowledge is dependent on any [created] creature’s “Action”, then Logically God must FIRST create that creature in order for God to know the action!

In Freewill God’s knowledge requires creature’s action, determined by creature, “in time”, after creation… therefore, in the “freewill” creation must necessarily preexist God’s knowledge and foreknowledge is reduced to knowledge gained in time.

---

In Calvinism God knows, when only he existed, independent from time, creation, creature, and creature actions… because God is the Planner, Purposer, Determiner, and Sustainer of everything that unfolds after Creation “in time”!


Colossians 1:16-17
For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.

And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

You're assuming the "TIME" works in the spiritual realm the same as it does in the physical realm. What "Calvinism" teaches, or thinks isn't important. It's nothing but "Just another" theological paradigm.

 

[Sketo]

You're assuming the "TIME" works in the spiritual realm the same as it does in the physical realm.

And if you care to expand on this idea we will find that my statement stands firm…

In Freewill God’s knowledge requires creature’s action, determined by creature, “in TIME”, after creation… therefore, in the “freewill” model, creation must necessarily preexist God’s knowledge and foreknowledge is reduced to knowledge gained from “TIME”.

---

What "Calvinism" teaches, or thinks isn't important. It's nothing but "Just another" theological paradigm.

The problem, with this statement, is that if Calvinism can be shown to be the only “theological paradigm” that can Justify its claims with Foundational Scripture and Logic then it’s not “Just another” “theological paradigm” is it…

 

[shnarkle]

I don’t see how every single choice is predestined if God gives us choices.

Agreed, but then assuming God gives us choices doesn't prove that God gives us choices.

There are a number of mentalists, hypnotists, etc. who point out that we make "choices" based upon what we are focused on. If God is directing history, then he decides what we are to focus on. He makes us, or molds us to be who we're predestined to be.

If God's will is sovereign, then free will is a joke. If God gives us choices, then God is not sovereign.

 

[JNelson]

No one said that God’s “knowing beforehand” alone causes “x”!

Because, unlike a mere creature knowing, we are talking about God’s knowing as the Creator, Sustainer and Planer, Purposer, Determiner of all things in existence.

You fail to acknowledge that God’s perfect knowledge [includes] God’s own “actions”!

God’s foreknowledge IS God’s perfect knowledge of the results of his own actions!

If God perfectly knows that “x” is THE [result] of his own action “a”, then by doing “a”, he IS determining His “perfectly known” [result] “x”!



“The LORD has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble.” (Pro 16:4)

“Everything” had a “purpose” before it was “made” therefore God “could” have determined a different “purpose” before he “made” anything.

Paul was “made for his purpose”!

“In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,” (Eph 1:11)




They had “choice”, one purposed by God before they were “made”, and the rest were hypothetical choices.

God “giving an imperative” is a part of the predetermined means to God’s purposed end.

Remember God already knows the results of his own action of “giving the imperative” therefore by “giving the imperative” he is determining His “perfectly known” result!

The only alternative is to assume God did not know the result of his “giving the imperative”… but I don’t recommend this path.

So the entire universe and all of time and history is just a preprogrammed code God wrote and hit the play button.

 

[His clay]

So the entire universe and all of time and history is just a preprogrammed code God wrote and hit the play button.

Straw man fallacy. Why? Conflating a dissimilar causal matrix with God's decree. You have reduced the various, multi-faceted forms of causation in God's universe down to computer programming and a play button. This is also a prime example of the reductionist fallacy. No one is saying or arguing for such a simplistic rendering.

 

[Sketo]

So the entire universe and all of time and history is just a preprogrammed code God wrote and hit the play button.

No… that would be a form of Deism which is a heresy strictly denied by scripture!

To say that God can “hit the play button” and assume that any part of creation can Work itself, apart from God’s moment by moment Sustaining Power, is to suggest a form of Deism!

Creation is God’s very own Work of unfolding what He has Planed, Purposed, and Determined before he Created.

Nothing exists, or continues to exist, apart from the “Upholding” moment by moment, Sustaining power of God! To suggest otherwise is to suggest another Ultimate Self-Sustaining Power exists in existence and this is the heresy of Dualism! God must first supply the Sustaining Power for anything to continue to exist and the only alternative is if God stops Sustaining something then that “something” ceases to exist.

Hebrews 1:3 “he upholds the universe by the word of his power.”

Colossians 1:17 “he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.”

Acts 17:28 “In him we live and move and have our being”