Did God Predestine Me To Add This Thread?

Chalcedon

Well-known member
If could not have sinned then he wasn’t truly human and his life was just an act, a charade

Call it what you want but it just isn’t biblical.

Hope it goes well. Good luck!!
Will you be able to sin in heaven ? Yes or no

If not why not ?
 

JNelson

Well-known member
No one said that God’s “knowing beforehand” alone causes “x”!

Because, unlike a mere creature knowing, we are talking about God’s knowing as the Creator, Sustainer and Planer, Purposer, Determiner of all things in existence.

You fail to acknowledge that God’s perfect knowledge [includes] God’s own “actions”!

God’s foreknowledge IS God’s perfect knowledge of the results of his own actions!

If God perfectly knows that “x” is THE [result] of his own action “a”, then by doing “a”, he IS determining His “perfectly known” [result] “x”!
Are you saying God knows what we will choose given certain circumstances and therefore
“The LORD has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble.” (Pro 16:4)

“Everything” had a “purpose” before it was “made” therefore God “could” have determined a different “purpose” before he “made” anything.

Paul was “made for his purpose”!

“In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,” (Eph 1:11)




They had “choice”, one purposed by God before they were “made”, and the rest were hypothetical choices.

God “giving an imperative” is a part of the predetermined means to God’s purposed end.

Remember God already knows the results of his own action of “giving the imperative” therefore by “giving the imperative” he is determining His “perfectly known” result!

The only alternative is to assume God did not know the result of his “giving the imperative”… but I don’t recommend this path.
No one said that God’s “knowing beforehand” alone causes “x”!

Because, unlike a mere creature knowing, we are talking about God’s knowing as the Creator, Sustainer and Planer, Purposer, Determiner of all things in existence.

You fail to acknowledge that God’s perfect knowledge [includes] God’s own “actions”!

God’s foreknowledge IS God’s perfect knowledge of the results of his own actions!

If God perfectly knows that “x” is THE [result] of his own action “a”, then by doing “a”, he IS determining His “perfectly known” [result] “x”!



“The LORD has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble.” (Pro 16:4)

“Everything” had a “purpose” before it was “made” therefore God “could” have determined a different “purpose” before he “made” anything.

Paul was “made for his purpose”!

“In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,” (Eph 1:11)




They had “choice”, one purposed by God before they were “made”, and the rest were hypothetical choices.

God “giving an imperative” is a part of the predetermined means to God’s purposed end.

Remember God already knows the results of his own action of “giving the imperative” therefore by “giving the imperative” he is determining His “perfectly known” result!

The only alternative is to assume God did not know the result of his “giving the imperative”… but I don’t recommend this path.
No one said that God’s “knowing beforehand” alone causes “x”!

Because, unlike a mere creature knowing, we are talking about God’s knowing as the Creator, Sustainer and Planer, Purposer, Determiner of all things in existence.

You fail to acknowledge that God’s perfect knowledge [includes] God’s own “actions”!

God’s foreknowledge IS God’s perfect knowledge of the results of his own actions!

If God perfectly knows that “x” is THE [result] of his own action “a”, then by doing “a”, he IS determining His “perfectly known” [result] “x”!
The LORD has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble.” (Pro 16:4)
“Everything” had a “purpose” before it was “made” therefore God “could” have determined a different “purpose” before he “made” anything.

Paul was “made for his purpose”!

“In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,” (Eph 1:11)




They had “choice”, one purposed by God before they were “made”, and the rest were hypothetical choices.

God “giving an imperative” is a part of the predetermined means to God’s purposed end.

Remember God already knows the results of his own action of “giving the imperative” therefore by “giving the imperative” he is determining His “perfectly known” result!

The only alternative is to assume God did not know the result of his “giving the imperative”… but I don’t recommend this path.
So basically, God know what we will choose given the circumstances and thus he acts based on the result he wants for us. If this is what your saying then it still doesn’t mean we don’t have a real choice.
 

JNelson

Well-known member
Will you be able to sin in heaven ? Yes or no

If not why not ?
No, because death and sin is no more as we are victorious through Christ.

1 Cor. 15:54-46 the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.” “O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?” the sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
 

JNelson

Well-known member
No… that would be a form of Deism which is a heresy strictly denied by scripture!

To say that God can “hit the play button” and assume that any part of creation can Work itself, apart from God’s moment by moment Sustaining Power, is to suggest a form of Deism!

Creation is God’s very own Work of unfolding what He has Planed, Purposed, and Determined before he Created.

Nothing exists, or continues to exist, apart from the “Upholding” moment by moment, Sustaining power of God! To suggest otherwise is to suggest another Ultimate Self-Sustaining Power exists in existence and this is the heresy of Dualism! God must first supply the Sustaining Power for anything to continue to exist and the only alternative is if God stops Sustaining something then that “something” ceases to exist.

Hebrews 1:3 “he upholds the universe by the word of his power.

Colossians 1:17 “he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.”

Acts 17:28 “In him we live and move and have our being
You failed to understand my analogy. God preprogrammed every to play out a certain way and thats how its happening.
 

JNelson

Well-known member
Straw man fallacy. Why? Conflating a dissimilar causal matrix with God's decree. You have reduced the various, multi-faceted forms of causation in God's universe down to computer programming and a play button. This is also a prime example of the reductionist fallacy. No one is saying or arguing for such a simplistic rendering.
It can be a simple code or an infinitely complex code but its still all preprogrammed.
 

JNelson

Well-known member
Wow.
What a rude assumption to make.
You've never met me, you don't know anything about me, yet you simply ASSUME (without learning anything about me) that I simply "assume" my beliefs?

No, I don't.
I hold to "sola Scriptura".

That's why I can quote SCRIPTURE for every belief I assert, rather than simply responding, "Duh, well it seems to make sense to me, so let's go with that".
Yet you're quick to say I assume my beliefs.
 

JNelson

Well-known member
Yes, but we don't "determine" our choices.
GOD does.

You seem to want to ASSUME that you have mental control over your choices. But this is not Scriptural.

In Gen. 50:20, Scripture teaches that God determined that Joseph's brothers would sell him into slavery in Egypt. They had no control over that. They weren't able to "choose otherwise". God determined it. But the brothers had the "willful assent" to do what they did.

In Isa. 10:5-7, Scripture teaches that God wielded Assyria like a club to attack Israel. Assyria had no "choice" in the matter, no more than a "club" has choice in an attacker's hand. God determined it. But Assyria had "willful assent" to do what they did, even though they could not (and did not want to) do otherwise.

In Acts 4:27-28, Scripture teaches that God determined that the Jews and the Romans would crucify Jesus. They had no "choice" in the matter. God determined it. But the Jews and Romans had "willful" assent to do what they did, they weren't forced to do it, they did so willingly and gladly. But they could not "choose" to do otherwise.

You might not be aware of this, but there is a centuries-old argument about whether "command implies ability". Pelagius (the bad guy) thought that "command implies ability". Augustine (the good guy) believed command does NOT imply ability. Pelagius took issue with a writing by Augustine which read:

"Grant what thou commandest,
and then command what thou wilt."

But a prime example of command NOT implying ability is found right in the very pages of Scripture. God commanded the Jews to obey the Mosaic Law (the command), yet in Rom. 3:19-20 Paul writes of their (and our) INABILITY to do so.

God made a command we are unable to do.
So basically God commanded a bunch of puppets who can't actually do anything unless he determines it.
That is Biblically true.



That is technically true, but false in the sense that you seem to understand it.

It's true technically, in that EVERYONE chooses NOT to love God, unless God gives us the grace to love Him.
Was it really a choice or did God predetermine it? you can't have your cake and eat too.
And no, we are NOT "just like Jesus".
Jesus is God. We are not.
We are wretched sinners, hateful rebels against God, dead in our trespasses and sins, unless God regenerates us to become children of God.
These are several different topics that deserve their own thread
 

JNelson

Well-known member
Agreed, but then assuming God gives us choices doesn't prove that God gives us choices.

There are a number of mentalists, hypnotists, etc. who point out that we make "choices" based upon what we are focused on. If God is directing history, then he decides what we are to focus on. He makes us, or molds us to be who we're predestined to be.

If God's will is sovereign, then free will is a joke. If God gives us choices, then God is not sovereign.
You are running to one extreme where no one really has a choice and the other extreme is where God has no control over his creation.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
So basically God commanded a bunch of puppets who can't actually do anything unless he determines it.

Of course, I never said anything about "puppets".
Actually, quite the CONTRARY, I repeatedly pointed out that men made "willful" actions.
Last time I checked, "puppets" don't have wills.

But here's the issue, I simply pointed out SCRIPTURE to you, and you are arguing AGAINST Scripture with your rationalization, and even worse, arguing worthless straw-men that we don't believe (ie. "puppets").

Btw, if the Scriptures I quoted to you are true (and they are), and they result in the conclusion (according to you) that men are "puppets", does that not mean that you are rejecting Scripture in favour of your own emotional imaginations?

Was it really a choice or did God predetermine it? you can't have your cake and eat too.

Why not?
I don't MISDEFINE "choice" like you do.

So according to the ACTUAL definition of "choice", my theology is just fine.

In the meantime, YOU contradict Gen. 50:20.
In the meantime, YOU contradict Isa. 10:5-7.
In the meantime, YOU contradict Acts 4:27-28.

And that's the problem with "rationalization". It starts out being innocent and innocuous, but in the end it forces you to reject Scripture.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
You are running to one extreme where no one really has a choice and the other extreme is where God has no control over his creation.

The problem is that you equate "choice" with "determination".
And they are NOT the same thing.

You assume all our choices are determinative.
But that's simply not reality.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
You are running to one extreme where no one really has a choice and the other extreme is where God has no control over his creation.

Where does the Bible teach that man "really has a choice"?

Nowhere in the ENTIRE Bible do we see the phrase (or concept), "choose to believe".
Because "belief" is NOT a "choice".
Belief is a GIFT given by God.

And when you do a Bible study of the word "choice" or "choose" or "chosen" throughout the New Testament, the VAST majority of instances about GOD doing the "choosing", and us being "the chosen" (i.e. the objects of God's choice).

Do a word study on "choose".
I dare ya.
I double dog dare ya.

Try determining your theology from what SCRIPTURE teaches.
 

JNelson

Well-known member
Of course, I never said anything about "puppets".
Actually, quite the CONTRARY, I repeatedly pointed out that men made "willful" actions.
Last time I checked, "puppets" don't have wills.
So what is the difference between a willful action and a choice to you?
But here's the issue, I simply pointed out SCRIPTURE to you, and you are arguing AGAINST Scripture with your rationalization, and even worse, arguing worthless straw-men that we don't believe (ie. "puppets").
I can just cite scriptures as well, anyone can. How someone interprets those verses is something different.
Btw, if the Scriptures I quoted to you are true (and they are), and they result in the conclusion (according to you) that men are "puppets", does that not mean that you are rejecting Scripture in favour of your own emotional imaginations?
Scriptures are true and no it does not make us puppets.
Why not?
I don't MISDEFINE "choice" like you do.

So according to the ACTUAL definition of "choice", my theology is just fine.
You have yet to define it so please go ahead and define choice.
In the meantime, YOU contradict Gen. 50:20.
In the meantime, YOU contradict Isa. 10:5-7.
In the meantime, YOU contradict Acts 4:27-28.

And that's the problem with "rationalization". It starts out being innocent and innocuous, but in the end it forces you to reject Scripture.
I don't contradict any of those verses. I never said our choices prohibit God from exercising his will.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
I've never said I assume my beliefs. Everything believe comes from scriptures

No, it doesn't.

Please show us "from scriptures" your following teachings:

1) "choice" means "selecting from two sets of alternatives WHICH ARE POSSIBLE";

2) "choice" means "determine";

3) We "choose to believe".

(I won't hold my breath...)
 

rossh

Well-known member
No Jesus could not of sinned nor choose anything contrary to the Father.

We call it Impeccability . Later today we will be digging deeper into the Trinity.

I’m stuck for the time being at Verizon
and why is that ?
 

JNelson

Well-known member
Where does the Bible teach that man "really has a choice"?
Deut. 30:19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live"

Rom 10:9 "IF you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."

Nowhere in the ENTIRE Bible do we see the phrase (or concept), "choose to believe".
Because "belief" is NOT a "choice".
Belief is a GIFT given by God.

And when you do a Bible study of the word "choice" or "choose" or "chosen" throughout the New Testament, the VAST majority of instances about GOD doing the "choosing", and us being "the chosen" (i.e. the objects of God's choice).

Do a word study on "choose".
I dare ya.
I double dog dare ya.

Try determining your theology from what SCRIPTURE teaches.
Saying we have a choice doesn't negate that God also chooses. God chooses and we choose as well, both are biblical.
 
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