"Did Heavenly Father ever sin during his mortal probation?"

[Janice Bower]

Blindness has various causes and various results. Circadian desynchrony (CD) is one problematic result. Being ignorant of the Bible or not interested in what it says causes a spiritual stumbling block. ? Spiritual blindness occurs when people depend on false teachers to inform them of how the verses should be interpreted. ?

Psalm 119:11
Thy word ? have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.

 

[Janice Bower]

We find eternal marriage--which is what the temple marriage is:

Revelation 19:7-9---King James Version
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

And, dang it--come to find out--there is the term "faith alone" found in the Biblical text:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible
24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

The Mormons teach temple marriages are performed by their leaders. The phrases "eternal marriage" and "celestial marriage" are not in the Bible.

I don't hear that "faith alone" phrase anywhere except by Mormons on Carm. They use it because they want to make cultic works a requirement for Mormons and pretend that non-Mormons are following a false god, and aren't righteous and are not saved.

Joseph Smith was an enemy to Christianity, a chauvinist, a braggart and a con-man. And Mormons think he's a God.

Chorus to their hymn "Praise to the Man":
Hail to the Prophet, ascended to heaven!
Traitors and tyrants now fight him in vain.
Mingling with Gods, he can plan for his brethren;
Death cannot conquer the hero again.

 

[Aaron32]

It's too bad you aren't humble enough to apologize, and admit that you're wrong.

Huh? I posted a reply in the wrong thread.
I'm sorry, Theo, for posting in the wrong location that I corrected 3 mins after i realized my mistake. LOL!

 

[Aaron32]

This is called a "straw-man" argument.
NOBODY here is claiming Mormons believe salvation is by "works alone", or, "obedience alone". If you disagree, then please QUOTE where any critic has argued that. Guess what? You can't, because we've never argued that way.

No, quite clearly, you've argued that mormon believe in a works based salvation.

There are three positions on salvation:

1) grace alone
2) works alone
3) grace + works.

The Mormon view claims works are required, but ALSO claims grace. But there are two problems with that view:

1) All the "not by works" passages which Mormons keep IGNORING (Eph. 2:8-9, 2 Tim. 1:9, Tit. 3:5, Rom. 4:1-6, 9:11-13, 11:5-6, etc. etc.)

Eph. 2:
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
yep. grace for use, now let's look at the next verse:
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Hmmm....good works...ordained by God? If we don't walk in those ordained works do we have salvation? Hmmmm????

2 Tim 1:9 "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace"
Next chapter:
2 Tim 2:5 And if a man also strive for masteries, yet is he not crowned, except he strive lawfully.
Striving...lawfully...sounds like effort according to law. What if you don't strive? Are you still saved?

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Three verses later:
8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
Careful to maintain good works? Why "careful"? If one isn't careful, are they still saved?

Romans 4:1-6
1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
(5 verses later)
11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
So it appears works is EVIDENCE of faith....If we don't do the works, are we still saved?

Romans 9
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

Next chapter:
Romans 10:
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.
Hearing and calling upon the name of the Lord are works. Can one be disobedient and still be saved?

So in each case, it seems it's impossible to have faith evident without works. Thus, works are required. But that doesn't mean salvation is based on works.

2) The fact that the Bible teaches that "grace" and "works" are MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE (Rom. 11:5-6, 2 Tim. 1:9, Eph. 2:5-9, etc.)

Romans 11:5-6
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Yes, just as I said above. Salvation is not on the basis OF works. And yet, Paul says we are made FOR good works.

You are contradicting your Mormon brethren, who teach that eternal life is a free gift GIVEN to everyone.

You can take that up with them. I've debated them also. I quote according to scripture.

I don't understand your question. It's like asking, "If the sky is blue, explain why planes are able to fly."

This fallacy is called "personal incredulity".
If works are REQUIRED for salvation - then do tell us why infant baptism isn't accepted? Do mormon babies that die in infancy go to hell, since they haven't received any ordinances?

But it seems incredibly inconsistent and contradictory for Mormons to reject infant baptism.

Oh, see, it looks like you understood the question after all.

Why is it that someone can "accept" a proxy baptism done to another, but they can't "accept" a proxy baptism done to themselves in infancy?

That's a great question. YOUR side is the one asserting Mormons believe in a works-based salvation. Y'all claim to understand Mormonism, and we're the ones creating "walls of deception" as Janice would say. Why is mormonism contradictory in your explanation, but coherent in our explanation?

 

[dberrie2020]

The Mormons teach temple marriages are performed by their leaders. The phrases "eternal marriage" and "celestial marriage" are not in the Bible.

Eternal marriage is found in the Bible--and it is performed by an LDS leader:

Matthew 25:1-12---King James Version
1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

I don't hear that "faith alone" phrase anywhere except by Mormons on Carm.

For those who read the Bible--they would find it there:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible
24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

 

[Theo1689]

No, quite clearly, you've argued that mormon believe in a works based salvation

<sigh>
It's like all you want to do is argue, and you're not interested in truth.
"Works-based salvation" does NOT mean "works only".
I've explained this to you, but you refuse to accept this, because you would prefer to project a straw-man onto me, because that's easier for you to argue against.

Eph. 2:
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
yep. grace for use, now let's look at the next verse:
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Hmmm....good works...ordained by God? If we don't walk in those ordained works do we have salvation? Hmmmm????

You are conflating two different issues:

1) Are works required for salvation? (No.)
2) Are works going to be present in a saved individual? (Yes.)

Eph. 2:8 is actually an excellent passage to show what is going on:

Faith --> Salvation --> Works.

Those works mentioned in Eph. 2:10 are not "required" for salvation, those works are the RESULT of salvation. Because of your false theology, you have to IGNORED "not by works" in v.9, and you have to turn the works into a causative "requirement", which Scripture NEVER describes them as.

Further, it's sad that Mormons always try to AVOID doing works, constantly making the argument, "If they aren't required, then we don't have to do them, so let's not do them". And that's proof that Mormons don't love God.

And finally, you respond to each passage with a rhetorical question, and a question is not a valid argument. It's a disingenuous ploy designed to suggest a false answer that they don't have to prove.

But at the end of the day, you STILL haven't addressed Eph. 2:9, "not by works". All you're doing is ignoring it.

2 Tim 1:9 "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace"
Next chapter:
2 Tim 2:5 And if a man also strive for masteries, yet is he not crowned, except he strive lawfully.
Striving...lawfully...sounds like effort according to law. What if you don't strive? Are you still saved?

You still haven't addressed the phrase, "not according to our works", you just IGNORED it, and went searching for the nearest positive mention of "works".

And again, rhetorical questions are not valid arguments.
Even more, your question is fallacious, as it is couched with the ASSUMPTION that works are "required" for salvation.

Someone who is truly saved WILL perform good works.
But those works don't save him, because he was ALREADY saved.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Three verses later:
8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
Careful to maintain good works? Why "careful"? If one isn't careful, are they still saved?

Again, you IGNORED the "not by works of righteousness" phrase, pretended it didn't exist, and went looking for a "positive" mention of works.

I didn't ask you want Tit. 3:8 means.
I asked you what Tit. 3:5.

And even so, vs. 8 says that "they which have believed in God" (meaning they are ALREADY saved) should maintain good works. So again, works comes AFTER salvation, not as some requirement "for" it.

Romans 4:1-6
1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
(5 verses later)

You're still playing your stupid game.
You IGNORED "him that worketh not".
You IGNORED "God imputed righteousness WITHOUT works".

And then you had to go "5 verses later" to try to find some "positive" mention of works, so you could IGNORE vv. 5-6.

Romans 9
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

Next chapter:
Romans 10:
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

So why do you continue to IGNORE Rom. 9:11?

So in each case, it seems it's impossible to have faith evident without works. Thus, works are required. But that doesn't mean salvation is based on works.

You are IGNORING the plain words of Scripture, and instead engaging in rationalization and deflecting to your "preferred" Scriptures.

Romans 11:5-6
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Yes, just as I said above. Salvation is not on the basis OF works. And yet, Paul says we are made FOR good works.

And you REFUSE to address what "it is no more of works" means.

And Paul says we are made for good works, but he does NOT add, "for salvation".

This fallacy is called "personal incredulity".
If works are REQUIRED for salvation -

There's not reason to assume something contradicted by Scripture.

then do tell us why infant baptism isn't accepted?

I cannot give an answer for the irrational beliefs of Mormons.

Why is mormonism contradictory in your explanation, but coherent in our explanation?

It's not "coherent" in your explanation.

 

[Aaron32]

<sigh>
It's like all you want to do is argue, and you're not interested in truth.

Projection

"Works-based salvation" does NOT mean "works only".

The alternative is "works + grace", but then you never defined it.
Just as many of our critics, they never talk about what "is", only about what "isn't"

I've explained this to you, but you refuse to accept this,

Yep. I must have missed it. Please cite the post, and I'll be happy to read it.

because you would prefer to project a straw-man onto me, because that's easier for you to argue against.

Projection

You are conflating two different issues:

1) Are works required for salvation? (No.)
2) Are works going to be present in a saved individual? (Yes.)

Eph. 2:8 is actually an excellent passage to show what is going on:

Faith --> Salvation --> Works.

Those works mentioned in Eph. 2:10 are not "required" for salvation, those works are the RESULT of salvation. Because of your false theology, you have to IGNORED "not by works" in v.9, and you have to turn the works into a causative "requirement", which Scripture NEVER describes them as.

Sure.
Anyway you want to slice it, if a person is saved, the works get done.
If we didn't keep the commandments, or did not possess the fruits of a saved individual, are they saved? No.
You're caught up in causality and who takes the credit, but that doesn't change the fact that a saved person will do certain things and have certain attributes. Commandments aren't optional, are they?

The rest of your post focuses on Mormons and no longer the subject of this discussion, so I'm posting it in a more appropriate thread.

Further, it's sad that Mormons always try to AVOID doing works, constantly making the argument, "If they aren't required, then we don't have to do them, so let's not do them". And that's proof that Mormons don't love God.

Projection.
What works am I avoiding Theo? Apparently, your psychic to know what I avoid and don't avoid.
Did I go to work today Theo, where do I work?

And finally, you respond to each passage with a rhetorical question, and a question is not a valid argument. It's a disingenuous ploy designed to suggest a false answer that they don't have to prove.

What's disingenuous is dropping the subject matter, and making Mormons the subject, to avoid answering said questions.
Clarifying questions are clearly a perfectly rational way of identifying truth, and testing if something true to see if the claim holds.
I thought the scripture made the claim pretty clear, I did see anything necessary to add to it:
"We are created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."
If your saved, the work gets done. Regardless of causality, works follow faith. The gate is straight and narrow. You either enter or you don't.

But at the end of the day, you STILL haven't addressed Eph. 2:9, "not by works". All you're doing is ignoring it.

What's to be said? I agree with it. That's why I'm saying we don't believe in a works-based salvation.
I'm also saying that if faith exists, works get done.

You still haven't addressed the phrase, "not according to our works", you just IGNORED it, and went searching for the nearest positive mention of "works".

What's to be said? I agree with it. That's why I'm saying we don't believe in a works-based salvation.
I'm also saying that if faith exists, works get done.

And again, rhetorical questions are not valid arguments.
Even more, your question is fallacious, as it is couched with the ASSUMPTION that works are "required" for salvation.

There's no assumption - it's a clarifying question. It's an open "yes"/"no question" - "if we don't strive, are we saved?"
At the end of the day, if we are saved, the works get done.
Abraham was circumcised, and his righteousness was attributed to his faith, not his works.
If Abraham had not done it, then he would have lacked the faith.
Abraham's righteousness didn't come from his circumcision, just as our salvation doesn't come from baptism. But does that mean Abraham wasn't required to get circumcised? It was a command, it wasn't option.
It turns out that God dictates the conditions of covenants, and our faith determines if we will accept those conditions or not. Weird.

Someone who is truly saved WILL perform good works.
But those works don't save him, because he was ALREADY saved.

Until they stop, and then it's determined "the person was never saved to begin with."

Again, you IGNORED the "not by works of righteousness" phrase, pretended it didn't exist, and went looking for a "positive" mention of works.

I didn't ask you want Tit. 3:8 means.
I asked you what Tit. 3:5.

And even so, vs. 8 says that "they which have believed in God" (meaning they are ALREADY saved) should maintain good works. So again, works comes AFTER salvation, not as some requirement "for" it.

Sigh...this is really quite odd. It seems that you want to paint me with a belief, and then badger me for think I believe it, when I never accepted the belief in the first place.
On the other hand, You want to seem to convey FAITH alone, but saying grace+works is wrong, while also believing "faith alone is never alone". But I bring up works, and you're like, "no, don't look at that!"

I'm not sure exactly what you're saying. Yes, we agree. Salvation is by faith alone. But faith that saves is never alone.
Yet, it's assumed on the basis that I'm a "Mormon", my works were not out of faith, but for selfish motive or something.
In the end, it's circular reasoning where Christians do everything right, and Mormons are eternally evil, even though on appearance they do the same thing.

You're still playing your stupid game.
You IGNORED "him that worketh not".
You IGNORED "God imputed righteousness WITHOUT works".

Question? How do you know I'm not saved? If there's no requirements then you never know.

And then you had to go "5 verses later" to try to find some "positive" mention of works, so you could IGNORE vv. 5-6.

Yes, because those who have faith produce works.

So why do you continue to IGNORE Rom. 9:11?

You are IGNORING the plain words of Scripture, and instead engaging in rationalization and deflecting to your "preferred" Scriptures.

And you REFUSE to address what "it is no more of works" means.

And Paul says we are made for good works, but he does NOT add, "for salvation".

There's not reason to assume something contradicted by Scripture.

Ok, fine. Faith alone, truly alone. - not of works. Nothing is required. Praise Jesus!
I'm not exactly sure what your conclusion is. You're kinda all over the place.

I cannot give an answer for the irrational beliefs of Mormons.

Chances are because you don't understand Mormonism.
It might help to read what you criticize.

22 For behold that all little children are alive in Christ, and also all they that are without the law. For the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and unto such baptism availeth nothing—
23 But it is mockery before God, denying the mercies of Christ, and the power of his Holy Spirit, and putting trust in dead works.
24 Behold, my son, this thing ought not to be; for repentance is unto them that are under condemnation and under the curse of a broken law.
25 And the first fruits of repentance is baptism; and baptism cometh by faith unto the fulfilling the commandments; and the fulfilling the commandments bringeth remission of sins;
26 And the remission of sins bringeth meekness, and lowliness of heart; and because of meekness and lowliness of heart cometh the visitation of the Holy Ghost, which Comforter filleth with hope and perfect love, which love endureth by diligence unto prayer, until the end shall come, when all the saints shall dwell with God.

It's not "coherent" in your explanation.

Ok. Well, if I sounded like you did up above then I can totally appreciate that.
Clearly, the Holy Spirit isn't dwelling in this exchange, so, what's the point in trying to explain anything?

 

[dberrie2020]

You are conflating two different issues:

1) Are works required for salvation? (No.)
2) Are works going to be present in a saved individual? (Yes.)

Were these saved prior to the Blood of Jesus Christ cleansing them?

1 John 1:7---King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.