Did Jesus bear Gods wrath and was He forsaken ?

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Carbon said:
Doubt it will do any good.

Guess we will just have accept the fact that we have brothers who believe Jesus was crucified but bore no sins. And since that be the case, God crushed Him and crucified him according to plan, even though he bore no sins, scripture must be mistaken when it claims Christ became sin, and a curse.

And further down the road for some: His righteousness is not imputed unto us, it is our own righteousness that we express in the form of faith unto salvation.
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I've had my AHA moment and I'm all in for the Glory of Penal Substitution. It only took me three days and a lot of help from you guys...

I was talking to my wife about this topic, she listened to all I had to say then she tells me. "Oh yeah we just got done studying that in my Women's Arise Group. Where we went through Kyle Idleman's book (Grace from the Cross) About the seven last things Jesus said on the cross." Then she proceeds to break it all down for me. Here's a little excerpt from the book:

“Eli, Eli, lema sabacthani!” Matthew breaks the Greek narrative with Aramaic, the mother tongue of Jesus, to capture the depth of feeling, the trauma that erupted from Jesus’s heart and lips in that moment. Jesus spoke to his Father three times while on the cross. But only here does he use the more formal name—Eli (God). Both of the other times Jesus calls God Abba (Dad). Eli is indicative of distance and formality, even alienation, and estrangement between God the Father and God the Son. Jesus had never known a time, even before the foundation of the world, when his fellowship with the Father was broken. But now he was experiencing it.

On the cross, all the sins of the (Elect) world were poured out upon Jesus and he “bore [them] in his body on the tree” (1 Pet. 2:24 ESV). God laid on him the iniquity of us all. As a result, the fellowship between God the Father and God the Son was temporarily ruptured. The crushing weight of sin was put on Jesus, and the momentary separation from God is as comparable to the experience of hell itself as you could possibly get. But Jesus was only forsaken temporarily.

His book "Grace From The Cross" is totally into the glory of penal substitution.

So was Jesus questioning the Father when He cried "my God my God I forsaken me," or was he calling to attention that his death on the cross was the fulfillment of Psalm 22? What I do know is that Jesus died our death for sin and he suffered our hell so we would never have to! This is the incredible, incomprehensibly high spiritual cost of grace. Jesus was forsaken so we could be forgiven. At that moment on Calvary, the Bible says that “God made him who had no sin to be sin for us” (2 Cor. 5:21). Why? That we might become the righteousness of God in him.
 
civic said:
Except Gods wrath is upon sin ,death and the devil which Jesus conquered by His Holy Life and laying down His life in love with His death not wrath with Gods anger towards His Beloved Son in Whom He is well pleased .
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John Gill includes the Crucifixion...
 
Predestined said:
I've had my AHA moment and I'm all in for the Glory of Penal Substitution. It only took me three days and a lot of help from you guys...

I was talking to my wife about this topic, she listened to all I had to say then she tells me. "Oh yeah we just got done studying that in my Women's Arise Group. Where we went through Kyle Idleman's book (Grace from the Cross) About the seven last things Jesus said on the cross." Then she proceeds to break it all down for me. Here's a little excerpt from the book:

“Eli, Eli, lema sabacthani!” Matthew breaks the Greek narrative with Aramaic, the mother tongue of Jesus, to capture the depth of feeling, the trauma that erupted from Jesus’s heart and lips in that moment. Jesus spoke to his Father three times while on the cross. But only here does he use the more formal name—Eli (God). Both of the other times Jesus calls God Abba (Dad). Eli is indicative of distance and formality, even alienation, and estrangement between God the Father and God the Son. Jesus had never known a time, even before the foundation of the world, when his fellowship with the Father was broken. But now he was experiencing it.

On the cross, all the sins of the (Elect) world were poured out upon Jesus and he “bore [them] in his body on the tree” (1 Pet. 2:24 ESV). God laid on him the iniquity of us all. As a result, the fellowship between God the Father and God the Son was temporarily ruptured. The crushing weight of sin was put on Jesus, and the momentary separation from God is as comparable to the experience of hell itself as you could possibly get. But Jesus was only forsaken temporarily.

His book "Grace From The Cross" is totally into the glory of penal substitution.

So was Jesus questioning the Father when He cried "my God my God I forsaken me," or was he calling to attention that his death on the cross was the fulfillment of Psalm 22? What I do know is that Jesus died our death for sin and he suffered our hell so we would never have to! This is the incredible, incomprehensibly high spiritual cost of grace. Jesus was forsaken so we could be forgiven. At that moment on Calvary, the Bible says that “God made him who had no sin to be sin for us” (2 Cor. 5:21). Why? That we might become the righteousness of God in him.
Click to expand...
You can believe the above all you want but if he was actually forsaken by the father for a millisecond then the Trinity was no longer the Trinity with perfect fellowship which is the foundation of my argument - the Blessed Trinity and God within His Being is LOVE.

That is what the opposition cannot reconcile . You are left with a fragmented god, fellowship etc….

And I will be just as adamant about this with the Trinity as I am opposing the kenosis heresy which also fragments God for 33 years.
 
Predestined said:
I've had my AHA moment and I'm all in for the Glory of Penal Substitution. It only took me three days and a lot of help from you guys...

I was talking to my wife about this topic, she listened to all I had to say then she tells me. "Oh yeah we just got done studying that in my Women's Arise Group. Where we went through Kyle Idleman's book (Grace from the Cross) About the seven last things Jesus said on the cross." Then she proceeds to break it all down for me. Here's a little excerpt from the book:

“Eli, Eli, lema sabacthani!” Matthew breaks the Greek narrative with Aramaic, the mother tongue of Jesus, to capture the depth of feeling, the trauma that erupted from Jesus’s heart and lips in that moment. Jesus spoke to his Father three times while on the cross. But only here does he use the more formal name—Eli (God). Both of the other times Jesus calls God Abba (Dad). Eli is indicative of distance and formality, even alienation, and estrangement between God the Father and God the Son. Jesus had never known a time, even before the foundation of the world, when his fellowship with the Father was broken. But now he was experiencing it.

On the cross, all the sins of the (Elect) world were poured out upon Jesus and he “bore [them] in his body on the tree” (1 Pet. 2:24 ESV). God laid on him the iniquity of us all. As a result, the fellowship between God the Father and God the Son was temporarily ruptured. The crushing weight of sin was put on Jesus, and the momentary separation from God is as comparable to the experience of hell itself as you could possibly get. But Jesus was only forsaken temporarily.

His book "Grace From The Cross" is totally into the glory of penal substitution.

So was Jesus questioning the Father when He cried "my God my God I forsaken me," or was he calling to attention that his death on the cross was the fulfillment of Psalm 22? What I do know is that Jesus died our death for sin and he suffered our hell so we would never have to! This is the incredible, incomprehensibly high spiritual cost of grace. Jesus was forsaken so we could be forgiven. At that moment on Calvary, the Bible says that “God made him who had no sin to be sin for us” (2 Cor. 5:21). Why? That we might become the righteousness of God in him.
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We should have went straight to her!

I'm glad you're settled. I think everyone here is settled. Christ's temporary suffering could be said to be inequitable because it's not an Eternal Suffering; but when an Eternal Being suffers the Wrath of God, the Eternal requirement was mete...
 
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civic said:
And Christ is Eternally One Person which comes from Him as the Eternal Son, not from his humanity
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It would be a good study about Christ in the flesh.
The God man
The God part cannot die.
The man part, did die.
Therefore sin had something to do with it.


There is a mystery here. One which has parts beyond our human capabilities to understand.
And scripture is quite clear which sheds some light, “Father, why has Thou forsaken me.”
Also, “it is finished.”
 
Carbon said:
It would be a good study about Christ in the flesh.
The God man
The God part cannot die.
The man part, did die.
Therefore sin had something to do with it.


There is a mystery here. One which has parts beyond our human capabilities to understand.
And scripture is quite clear which sheds some light, “Father, why has Thou forsaken me.”
Also, “it is finished.”
Click to expand...
I have the Hypostatic Union I put together .


Hypostatic Union

1. Jesus is a person. (1 Tim 2:5)

2. Jesus, the Person, has two natures- Divine and human (John 1:1, 14, 1 Timothy 3:16): Divine and human. This is the Hypostatic Union.( Col 2:9, Heb 1:3,2:16)

3. The Communicatio Idiomatum (Communication of the Properties) states that the attributes of His Divine nature and human nature are both ascribed to the one Person of Jesus. So Jesus can exhibit attributes of Divinity (Omnipresence, Omniscience, Omnipotence, . John 2:23, 3:13, 8:58, He was prayed to in Acts 7:59, John 14:13, He was is worshiped Matt 2:2:11, Rev 5:13-14) and at the same time exhibit attributes of His humanity( He was tempted, ate, prayed,wept, grew in wisdom and stature,was anointed,was baptized, the Father was greater, didn’t know the day or the hour of His Return, He cried My God my God why has Thou forsaken Me, He died etc.). The communicatio idiomatum does not mean that any part of the Divine nature was communicated to the human nature.

4. The Man(anthropos) Jesus is what we perceive (if we were there 2000 years ago in Israel) and through the Man we encounter the Divine nature (Jesus knowing all things, is on earth while in heaven, answers prayer, forgiving sins, etc.).

5. The Person of Jesus will always be both Divine and human. (John 1:1,14,20:28, 1 John 5:20, 1 Timothy 2:5) Those who deny this fact are the spirit of antichrist. (1 John 4:1-4,2 John 7)

6. The Divine Nature is within the Trinity.(Father, Son and Holy Spirit)

7. Since the Person of Jesus claims the attributes of Divinity(John 3:13,8:58,Matthew 9:2,12:8), then the Person of Jesus is a member of the Trinity.( John 14-16, Math 28:19)

Anything said of either of Christ's two natures applies to the one Person of Christ, so that is how it is said that Christ died on the cross. The term "hypostatic union" refers to the two natures united in the one Person, so anything said of those two natures in the one Person applies to the whole Person. So we see that the Person of Christ is both God and man. The phrase hypostatic union was adopted by the fifth general council at Constantinople, 533 AD. That council declared that the union of two natures is real (against Arius), not a mere indwelling of God in a man (against Nestorius), with a rational soul (against Apollinaris), and that in Christ’s Divine nature remains unchanged (against Eutyches).
 
civic said:
You can believe the above all you want but if he was actually forsaken by the father for a millisecond then the Trinity was no longer the Trinity with perfect fellowship which is the foundation of my argument - the Blessed Trinity and God within His Being is LOVE.

That is what the opposition cannot reconcile . You are left with a fragmented god, fellowship etc….

And I will be just as adamant about this with the Trinity as I am opposing the kenosis heresy which also fragments God for 33 years.
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I can reconcile it. You sound like TomL. Do you notice how you are approaching this?
 
Carbon said:
It would be a good study about Christ in the flesh.
The God man
The God part cannot die.
The man part, did die.
Therefore sin had something to do with it.


There is a mystery here. One which has parts beyond our human capabilities to understand.
And scripture is quite clear which sheds some light, “Father, why has Thou forsaken me.”
Also, “it is finished.”
Click to expand...
I totally agree with this. Jesus wasn't merely quoting Psalm 22.
 
ReverendRV said:
I can reconcile it. You sound like TomL. Do you notice how you are approaching this?
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Absolutely as I’m defending the integrity of the Trinity. Theology begins and ends with God, not man. It’s all the character and nature of God. One must look at it through the Eternal Relationship within the Trinity . Over the years I’ve come to the conclusion everything in doctrine begins and ends with God. So that is my premise/ foundation for this thread to begin with brother .

But many may not be onboard with my stance and that’s ok. This is just where I’m at right now in my Christian walk/journey with Theology.
 
civic said:
You can believe the above all you want but if he was actually forsaken by the father for a millisecond then the Trinity was no longer the Trinity with perfect fellowship which is the foundation of my argument - the Blessed Trinity and God within His Being is LOVE.
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If this was God’s decree, that Christ should die for His elect.

The simple fact He physically died proves there was sin, though not His.
Only God could possibly bear such a thing for His elect, this is nothing mere man could do.

Scripture teaches it. The Ot is types and shadows, Christ is the fulfillment of the OT sacrifices. These were fulfilled in Him, there are no more sacrifices nor will there ever be that are acceptable to God.

This is the way God designed and decreed it.

For one to say The fellowship in the Trinity is destroyed by such a plan, that’s humanity trying to understand the parts of God’s secret council that we have no access to. The parts we do have access to is in the word. Hence: “Father, why has Thou forsaken Me?”
civic said:
That is what the opposition cannot reconcile . You are left with a fragmented god, fellowship etc….
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Personally, I have no issue whatsoever.

Brother, me thinks you picked a wrong foundation for your argument.
I believe explicit scripture points us to truth. Anything beyond that is mere speculation, not good to build doctrine on
 
Let me put this another way to illustrate my thinking . If we look at a pyramid and at the top of that pyramid it what and where everything points to think of the top as the Trinity and everything under flows down from there . My theological view comes from that vantage point with Gods nature , character , attributes etc….

So if at the very foundation of the Trinity is perfect Love in fellowship that can never for a second be broken otherwise God is no longer God. This becomes the litmus test imho.

It’s what I’m so opposed to Kenosis . It’s does for 33 years what a few minutes does with His being forsaken .

It’s really the same argument . If one opposes Kenosis then by all means they should oppose being forsaken with the Father turning His back on His Son .

To me it’s on the verge of blasphemy . But that’s just me and my HIGH view of the Triune Godhead. I have a real high Christological view of Scripture where everything points to or looks back upon the Person of Christ is some manner or form .
 
civic said:
Absolutely as I’m defending the integrity of the Trinity. Theology begins and ends with God, not man. It’s all the character and nature of God. One must look at it through the Eternal Relationship within the Trinity . Over the years I’ve come to the conclusion everything in doctrine behinds and ends with God. So that is my premise/ foundation for this thread to begin with brother .

But many may not be onboard with my stance and that’s ok. This is just where I’m at right now in my Christian walk/journey with Theology.
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You said, "Anything said of either of Christ's two natures applies to the one Person of Christ, so that is how it is said that Christ died on the cross."...

That's not Chalcedonian though. The Logos of God didn't die. So there are things that are true of Jesus the son of Mary that's not true of the Logos of God. Jesus Grew in stature and Wisdom, etc. Yes, Jesus died but I think you should consider this. peccable or Impeccable? The Life of the Logos of God is Impeccable, but the life of Jesus the son of Mary was Peccable...

I've noticed in the Past when we talked about Peccability v Impeccability, you distanced yourself from the separateness of the Nature's...
 
ReverendRV said:
You said, "Anything said of either of Christ's two natures applies to the one Person of Christ, so that is how it is said that Christ died on the cross."...

That's not Chalcedonian though. The Logos of God didn't die. So there are things that are true of Jesus the son of Mary that's not true of the Logos of God. Jesus Grew in stature and Wisdom, etc. Yes, Jesus died but I think you should consider this. peccable or Impeccable? The Life of the Logos of God is Impeccable, but the life of Jesus the son of Mary was Peccable...

I've noticed in the Past when we talked about Peccability v Impeccability, you distanced yourself from the separateness of the Nature's...
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100% Impeccable
 
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