Did Jesus bear Gods wrath and was He forsaken ?

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praise_yeshua said:
Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

The Atonement of Jesus Christ changed the focus of atonement to solely be upon Jesus Christ.

Men must deal with Jesus Christ.

Universalism doesn't require men to accept Jesus Christ.
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Well it looks like we don't have to worry about running into any Universalism folks in heaven. That is unless they accept Jesus. Because he is the only way.
 
praise_yeshua said:
So you're the final authority?

We are equals. We chasten one another. You're trying to chasten me.

Don't ever get so wrapped up your own rhetoric that you forget this truth.
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Well friend I never said I am an equal to anyone, I have always claimed that I am the dumbest Christian in all Christendom. And I wasn't chastening you friend, just asking. Like when you would ask me, correct? I never get wrapped in my own rhetoric, sir.
 
praise_yeshua said:
The benefit is there whether it is realized or not. It is substantive without the receiving.

This is where you get into dealing with people that do not know how to make a fundamental argument. They start at the end and make their way backward till they find what they want. They do not start at the beginning and build their theology.

There is only one foundation. Tom's work is going to burn up one day because of how he chosen to build and it is sad.
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Okay I get you... I'm started in the end and working backwards no wonder I'm getting confused. Okay I get it. Please correct me if I'm wrong. You're saying that the atonement Jesus made was enough for the whole world every sin there ever was or will be. But to benefit from that you have to accept him as Lord and Savior.
 
praise_yeshua said:
Men are judged by their dealings with Jesus Christ.

Act 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

I believe the Scriptures. The Atonement establish this fact. You hatred for certain doctrine blinds you to the simplest of truths. No matter how I dislike what someone teaches. I do not attack it blindly. I based my theology on the Truth. I do not base it upon an counter-argument.
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Now now

That is rhetoric directed at the person

The question you need to answer is

If the cross automatically applies its benefits

and the atonement is unlimited

how do you avoid universalism?

It does not call for discussing me and doing so does not answer the question

Calvinist will deny the atonement is unlimited

and most will deny the atonement is automatically applied

Yours is a unique situation

You deny Calvinism

Affirm unlimited atonement

claim the cross automatically supplies its benefits
 
Ladodgers6 said:
Before the foundations of the world? Absolutely!
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So, you were forgiven at birth and the stain of original sin already blotted out?

and of course, you could not have been a child of wrath even as others

Regenerated as well as it is the mechanism of salvation?

Titus 3:5 (KJV)
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Ephesians 2:5 (KJV)
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
 
Theo1689 said:
Why do you think it's a "decision"?
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Okay... Awesome looks like I'm in foe a good education Let me thank you all in advance. And please note I take this seriously I'm not around.

The confess with your mouth and believe in your heart is the part that make it makes me think I made the decision. But the truth is I can see where God has had his hand on me all my life. Even before I knew him or surrendered my life to him.
 
Predestined said:
Okay... Awesome looks like I'm in foe a good education Let me thank you all in advance. And please note I take this seriously I'm not around.

The confess with your mouth and believe in your heart is the part that make it makes me think I made the decision.
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I've confess with my mouth that I hate peas.
Does that mean I "decided" to hate peas?
Of course not. I'd prefer to like them. But I don't.
So how does "confessing" something indicate "deciding"?

I "confess" that I'm short. But it wasn't a "decision".
I "confess" that I'm White. But that wasn't a "decision".
 
fltom said:
Do you think you were saved before you believed?
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Maybe I was and didn't know it. This is really starting to get interesting.
Ladodgers6 said:
You don't have to accept Christ as your Lord and Savior, because he already is Lord and Savior.
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That's an awesome thought... I just had to come to the realization that he already was Lord.
Ladodgers6 said:
Before the foundations of the world? Absolutely!
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I see where you're coming from
 
Theo1689 said:
I've confess with my mouth that I hate peas.
Does that mean I "decided" to hate peas?
Of course not. I'd prefer to like them. But I don't.
So how does "confessing" something indicate "deciding"?

I "confess" that I'm short. But it wasn't a "decision".
I "confess" that I'm White. But that wasn't a "decision".
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I understand, thanks Theo for pointing it out to me. He chose me I didn't choose him.
 
Theo1689 said:
I've confess with my mouth that I hate peas.
Does that mean I "decided" to hate peas?
Of course not. I'd prefer to like them. But I don't.
So how does "confessing" something indicate "deciding"?

I "confess" that I'm short. But it wasn't a "decision".
I "confess" that I'm White. But that wasn't a "decision".
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And how do you entrust yourself to something without an act of the will?

Faith involves the mind, and the will

Just having head knowledge does not save
 
36 For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. [For all things originate with Him and come from Him; all things live through Him, and all things center in and tend to consummate and to end in Him.] To Him be glory forever! Amen (so be it). Romans 11:36

This verse is an all-inclusive statement that everything is from God, through God, and to God. The idea is that all things are from His sovereign will (source), happen through His sovereign activity (means), and are to His sovereign glory (goal).

He's the author of my salvation
 
Predestined said:
Okay... Awesome looks like I'm in foe a good education Let me thank you all in advance. And please note I take this seriously I'm not around.

The confess with your mouth and believe in your heart is the part that make it makes me think I made the decision. But the truth is I can see where God has had his hand on me all my life. Even before I knew him or surrendered my life to him.
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But you are not going to say you were saved before you believed?
 
praise_yeshua said:
No. That is your requirement. It is not the requirement of what I stated.

I said what I meant and you're trying to conflate what I said with your requirement. Please stop that.

The Atonement is substantive in and of itself. I has Intrinsic value. YOU are denying this. I have tried to get you to recognize this and you refuse. You simply keep repeating your false claim.
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Nope that is false

I stated the atonement of itself does not save. I never stated anything at all about substantiative or intrinsic value

and I stated you need faith to be saved

You stated my view was heretical

I also asked you a number of times if you held to unlimited atonement

I found from a post of yours that it appears that you do

so how can you logically hold to unlimited atonement

and the idea the cross automatically applies its benefits

while avoiding universalism?
 
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