Did Jesus create the angels?

Nathan P

Active member
I just refuted your claim. The book of revelation is AN OPEN BOOK!!! Anyone can pick it up and read it, and know what it says, and then go right out and convey that exact same message to anyone who has the ears to hear. Have you read it? Then you can also know what it says.

People have been revealing what the book of revelation says for literally thousands of years! Read a history book for crying out loud.

The evidence is empirically obvious and irrefutable. Prove me wrong. How can hundreds of thousands of people read the book of revelation and not know what it says? What do you want us to do, copy and paste the whole book here?

Here's the link: Now you have evidence that the book is open for you to read and know what it says.

You refuted nothing as I explained. Anyway at the first of revelations the information given to Jesus by God is God's word and Jesus is to tell them what will happen soon and then one and only one angel was sent to John correct?
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
WE are talking about then who was worthy to tell the information to the angel and not now as you claim. Or I refuted you.
It's a moot point to begin with. As I pointed out already, your claims deny the fact that none of what John had revealed to him has even happened yet. The greater point here is that WE ALL KNOW what is within the book of revelation now. It's one of those paradoxes of time. Whoever is worthy to open the book is not who is worthy to reveal the information. We know this because NONE OF US are worthy, yet we all know what the contents are already.

John's revelation automatically negates the future event by the very fact that we already know the contents. The point here is that only Christ is worthy to open the scroll, and this is regardless of the fact that we already know what it contains. The whole scene is anticlimactic from the standpoint of knowing the information within because we already know.

It is completely asinine to claim that only Jesus is worthy to reveal this information to John. John would be the first to admit that he isn't worthy to receive it from Christ or some lesser caste of angel.

Conflating who is worthy to open a seal with who is worthy to reveal this information to John is why no one is answering your question. It's simply not an issue. The text makes no claims to anyone being worthy to pass this information on to John. It's a non-issue.
 

Nathan P

Active member
And then John reveals it to anyone else who decides to read John's Revelation so just because you come up with this claim, it doesn't then follow because EVERYONE now knows, and yet this is a prophecy of what is to come, correct???

According to you logic, we're all worthy because we all already know what's in the scroll even though none of this has actually come to pass yet. Seems a bit anticlimactic, don't you think? What's going to happen when this actually happens? We're all going to know what's going to happen so it's a spoiler alert?

Except for the fact that we all know now the contents of the scroll before the fact. So it kinda throws your thoery right out the window. How many times do you have to be told we are talking about then and who was worthy to tell it to John and not who is able to read it after John writes the information down?
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
You refuted nothing as I explained.
You didn't explain anything. You have refuted nothing.
Anyway at the first of revelations the information given to Jesus by God is God's word
Uh, Jesus is God's word, or didn't you know that?
and Jesus is to tell them what will happen soon
Soon? So you think the events within this revelation already happened? This may be why I'm not following your argument. My understanding is that the revelation is of the Day of Judgement.
and then one and only one angel was sent to John correct?
It could have been a legion of angels, and it wouldn't have made a bit of difference. Although with this new revelation that you may be looking at this revelation revealing events that have already come to pass may alter that, I don't know. You'll have to elaborate on that one as well.
 

Nathan P

Active member
It's a moot point to begin with. As I pointed out already, your claims deny the fact that none of what John had revealed to him has even happened yet. The greater point here is that WE ALL KNOW what is within the book of revelation now. It's one of those paradoxes of time. Whoever is worthy to open the book is not who is worthy to reveal the information. We know this because NONE OF US are worthy, yet we all know what the contents are already.

John's revelation automatically negates the future event by the very fact that we already know the contents. The point here is that only Christ is worthy to open the scroll, and this is regardless of the fact that we already know what it contains. The whole scene is anticlimactic from the standpoint of knowing the information within because we already know.

It is completely asinine to claim that only Jesus is worthy to reveal this information to John. John would be the first to admit that he isn't worthy to receive it from Christ or some lesser caste of angel.

Conflating who is worthy to open a seal with who is worthy to reveal this information to John is why no one is answering your question. It's simply not an issue. The text makes no claims to anyone being worthy to pass this information on to John. It's a non-issue.
We are not talking about if it has happened yet. Listen closely and slow down when you read it and we are talking about who the only one who was worthy to tell John the information in the first place and that was Jesus, and since the angel told John that information then the angel had to have been Jesus.
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
We are not talking about if it has happened yet.
You are which is why I asked you to elaborate on this.
Listen closely and slow down when you read it and we are talking about who the only one who was worthy to tell John
This is what YOU are injecting into the text and the discussion. I am pointing out that NOWHERE does John mention anything about being worthy to receive this revelation. If so, where???
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
You are which is why I asked you to elaborate on this.

This is what YOU are injecting into the text and the discussion. I am pointing out that NOWHERE does John mention anything about being worthy to receive this revelation. If so, where???
Again, no one is disputing the worthiness to open the scroll. The issue is where does the text indicate the worthiness of anyone to reveal this to John???
 

Nathan P

Active member
You are which is why I asked you to elaborate on this.

This is what YOU are injecting into the text and the discussion. I am pointing out that NOWHERE does John mention anything about being worthy to receive this revelation. If so, where???
WE are not talking about it saying if John was worthy to receive the information and instead who was worthy to tell John the information to write down and that was Jesus. Again the angel told John that information and that means the angel had to have been Jesus.
 

imJRR

Well-known member
No you are refuted until you can provide who else but Jesus can tell anyone that information.

LOL! I'm only refuted in your imagination. The recorded posting history is that I have proven that Christ is God come in the flesh the Savior in the other thread, and there is nothing you can do about it - except deny and run away. And besides Heb. 1:3 and 8, there are plenty of other verses that show and prove the Deity of Christ. To answer the question at the beginning of the thread: Yes, Christ DID create the angels and everything. He is Creator God - That is the witness of Scripture.
 

Nathan P

Active member
LOL! I'm only refuted in your imagination. The recorded posting history is that I have proven that Christ is God come in the flesh the Savior in the other thread, and there is nothing you can do about it - except deny and run away. And besides Heb. 1:3 and 8, there are plenty of other verses that show and prove the Deity of Christ. To answer the question at the beginning of the thread: Yes, Christ DID create the angels and everything. He is Creator God - That is the witness of Scripture.
Until you can provide who else but Jesus knew the information from the scroll you are refuted because only he could tell John that information and the angel told John that information. Also you can not have 2 telling them what will happen soon and since Jesus is going to tell them what will happen at rev. 1, then the angel sent at rev. 22:6 who was sent to tell them what will happen soon that angel sent had to be Jesus or you are saying it took 2 different ones to get the information to them.
 

Nathan P

Active member
You are which is why I asked you to elaborate on this.

This is what YOU are injecting into the text and the discussion. I am pointing out that NOWHERE does John mention anything about being worthy to receive this revelation. If so, where???
How many times do you have to be told there is only one worthy to tell John that information and that was Jesus. Since the angel told John that information the angel was Jesus. John does not have to mention being worthy to receive the information because God is going to have it delivered to him.
 

Nathan P

Active member
You didn't explain anything. You have refuted nothing.

Uh, Jesus is God's word, or didn't you know that?

Soon? So you think the events within this revelation already happened? This may be why I'm not following your argument. My understanding is that the revelation is of the Day of Judgement.

It could have been a legion of angels, and it wouldn't have made a bit of difference. Although with this new revelation that you may be looking at this revelation revealing events that have already come to pass may alter that, I don't know. You'll have to elaborate on that one as well.
There is a difference between God's word and the Word of God. It says an angel was sent to John and not legions of them. Listen closely since only one angel was sent to John and John was a witness to only one about the word of God and that was Jesus then the angel sent and Jesus have to be one and the same because you can not have 2 of them telling John the information at about the same time.
 

imJRR

Well-known member
Until you can provide who else but Jesus knew the information from the scroll you are refuted because only he could tell John that information and the angel told John that information. Also you can not have 2 telling them what will happen soon and since Jesus is going to tell them what will happen at rev. 1, then the angel sent at rev. 22:6 who was sent to tell them what will happen soon that angel sent had to be Jesus or you are saying it took 2 different ones to get the information to them.

LOL! Nope - The verses I've referred to show and prove that Jesus Christ is God come in the flesh, the Savior, and your posts have not done and can't do anything to refute them except to deny and run away from them. This is what it means and is to be a JW. And there are plenty of other verses that show and prove the Deity of Christ.
 

Nathan P

Active member
LOL! Nope - The verses I've referred to show and prove that Jesus Christ is God come in the flesh, the Savior, and your posts have not done and can't do anything to refute them except to deny and run away from them. This is what it means and is to be a JW. And there are plenty of other verses that show and prove the Deity of Christ.
We are dealing with this scripture now and I will prove your scriptures wrong later. You need to throw those in to distract the attention away from the fact that only Jesus could have told John that information and thus the angel who told John that information had to have been Jesus. Also at rev. 1 the angel sent had to have been Jesus because only one angel was sent and John was a witness to only one about the word of God and that was Jesus.
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
How many times do you have to be told there is only one worthy to tell John that information and that was Jesus.
I don't need to be told it once because there is NOTHING in the text that indicates or suggests this point you can't stop obsessing over. The only thing the text states is that Jesus is the only one worthy to open the seal. There is nothing mentioned anywhere about being worthy to reveal this information. Again, if this is the case, where is it stated in the text?????
 

Nathan P

Active member
Until you can provide who else but Jesus knew the information from the scroll you are refuted because only he could tell John that information and the angel told John that information. Also you can not have 2 telling them what will happen soon and since Jesus is going to tell them what will happen at rev. 1, then the angel sent at rev. 22:6 who was sent to tell them what will happen soon that angel sent had to be Jesus or you are saying it took 2 different ones to get the information to them.
You need to read heb. 1:8 slowly. It says God the Father says to the Son your throne O God, but at vs 9 he says to the Son Therefore God your God has anointed you.He is telling the Son that the Son has a God .Show me anywhere where the Son says to the Father that your God has anointed you? It does not say that anywhere because the Father does not have a God or an equal. I have shot down one of your scriptures.
 

Nathan P

Active member
I don't need to be told it once because there is NOTHING in the text that indicates or suggests this point you can't stop obsessing over. The only thing the text states is that Jesus is the only one worthy to open the seal. There is nothing mentioned anywhere about being worthy to reveal this information. Again, if this is the case, where is it stated in the text?????
It is obvious the one worthy to know the information is the only one worthy to reveal the information
 

Nathan P

Active member
LOL! Nope - The verses I've referred to show and prove that Jesus Christ is God come in the flesh, the Savior, and your posts have not done and can't do anything to refute them except to deny and run away from them. This is what it means and is to be a JW. And there are plenty of other verses that show and prove the Deity of Christ.
You do not want to address the scripture because you know you would have to admit that since only one angel was sent to John and John was a witness to only one about God's word then the one sent to John and the one who John was a witness to had to be one and the same.
 

Nathan P

Active member
LOL! Nope. The verses I've put forth ARE the REAL, BIBLICAL point.
Jesus is not an angel - The verses I've shown prove that.
And I can show more.
You can deny and reject them all you want - But that's all you can do.
That's what it is and means to be a JW - Reject and Deny and Run Away from what Scripture actually says and shows

Jesus openly, clearly, directly and irrefutably declared that seeing Him equals God Himself in John 14:8-9. He tells Thomas the same thing in verse 7. There's not even a faint whisper of a hint of the "something similar" nonsense you have put forth. He doesn't say at all that seeing Him is "like" seeing God. You have to intentionally and deliberately read that idea into the verse in order to intentionally and deliberately pervert the verse to your view.

And - The Father does openly and directly call the Son "God" in Heb. 1:8.
You can't do anything about this.
I already have elsewhere because in vs 9 the Father says therefore God your God has anointed you. Meaning the Son has a God.
Now nowhere does it say say the Father has a God and thus they can not be equal because only the Son has a God. Do you have anymore scriptures for me to refute?
 
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