Did Jesus create the angels?

Nathan P

Member
There is only One who is Alpha and Omega and that is God Himself. Jesus clearly identifies Himself as that in 22:12-13. You deny that, yes, but that's another matter.

The fact, truth, and reality is that the great preponderance of biblical evidence is against the idea that Christ is an angel. As stated earlier -There are numerous other, more important, more clear Scripture references to show the truth that Jesus Christ is God come in the flesh, the Savior and not an angel. However, I believe it is glaringly obvious even to those who might only skim over this thread that your posts would much, MUCH rather avoid the more important and clear Scriptures - very much like an alley cat would avoid a full immersion bath. For me, this is nothing new - I have years of personal experiences similar to what's happening here. JWs simply do not have the capacity to honestly deal with the more important, straightforward and clear verses regarding the Deity of Christ like John 1:1; 1:18; 14:1; 14:8-9; Col. 1:15-16; 2:10; Heb. 1:3 and 8 (and there are more).
It is you who can not deal with the fact that it is the Father who is speaking at rev. 1:8. You refuse to acknowledge at 1:8 it says I am the Alpha and the Omega the beginning and the end, but at 22:13 it says I am the Alpha and Omega the First and the Last the Beginning and the end. Those are 2 different ones because the first one does not contain the First and the Last.
 

Nathan P

Member
There is only One who is Alpha and Omega and that is God Himself. Jesus clearly identifies Himself as that in 22:12-13. You deny that, yes, but that's another matter.

The fact, truth, and reality is that the great preponderance of biblical evidence is against the idea that Christ is an angel. As stated earlier -There are numerous other, more important, more clear Scripture references to show the truth that Jesus Christ is God come in the flesh, the Savior and not an angel. However, I believe it is glaringly obvious even to those who might only skim over this thread that your posts would much, MUCH rather avoid the more important and clear Scriptures - very much like an alley cat would avoid a full immersion bath. For me, this is nothing new - I have years of personal experiences similar to what's happening here. JWs simply do not have the capacity to honestly deal with the more important, straightforward and clear verses regarding the Deity of Christ like John 1:1; 1:18; 14:1; 14:8-9; Col. 1:15-16; 2:10; Heb. 1:3 and 8 (and there are more).
We have dealt with those scriptures many times and take John 1 it has been proven that the Father is the creator there. And 1:18 because no one including the Son has seen God because it says no one has ever seen God. But his only Son who is himself God has told us about him. No one including the Son has seen God so how are they a trinity right by each other?
 
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imJRR

Well-known member
LOL! Nope. You might imagine there are "2 different ones", but there is not one atom of real, actual substantiation for your assertion.

But again (and no surprise), you miss the primary point: The fact, truth, and reality is that the great preponderance of biblical evidence is definitely against the idea that Christ is an angel. As stated earlier - There are numerous other, more important, more clear Scripture references that show the truth that Jesus Christ is God come in the flesh, the Savior and not an angel. Because of this, it is simply NOT anything resembling honest Bible study for you to deliberately ignore and avoid them. This is what it means and is to be a JW - JWs simply do not have the capacity to honestly deal with the more important, straightforward and clear verses regarding the Deity of Christ which have been posted.
 

imJRR

Well-known member
We have dealt with those scriptures many times and take John 1 it has been proven that the Father is the creator there and not Jesus because Jesus is the life in the him and thus the him can not be Jesus too.

Two things:
A) Please refer to the threads and posts numbers where the "many times" has taken place. Since you have declared that this has happened "many times", this should not be difficult for you to produce proof of what you say. Actually, don't bother trying, because...

B) Your post is flat out wrong and worse about John 1:3. That verse is a direct reference to Christ and very clearly states that HE is the Creator of all things. To deny this is to confess to either 1) open, deliberate dishonesty in reading, or 2) a serious lacking in reading comprehension ability.
 

Nathan P

Member
Two things:
A) Please refer to the threads and posts numbers where the "many times" has taken place. Since you have declared that this has happened "many times", this should not be difficult for you to produce proof of what you say. Actually, don't bother trying, because...

B) Your post is flat out wrong and worse about John 1:3. That verse is a direct reference to Christ and very clearly states that HE is the Creator of all things. To deny this is to confess to either 1) open, deliberate dishonesty in reading, or 2) a serious lacking in reading comprehension ability.

Two things:
A) Please refer to the threads and posts numbers where the "many times" has taken place. Since you have declared that this has happened "many times", this should not be difficult for you to produce proof of what you say. Actually, don't bother trying, because...

B) Your post is flat out wrong and worse about John 1:3. That verse is a direct reference to Christ and very clearly states that HE is the Creator of all things. To deny this is to confess to either 1) open, deliberate dishonesty in reading, or 2) a serious lacking in reading comprehension ability.
No it does not say Jesus is the creator at John 1 because as you were told and you can not prove otherwise and that is the life in the him was Jesus and thus the him can not be Jesus too. The him is the creator and since it can not be Jesus that leaves the him as being the Father. Deny that the life in the him was Jesus?
 

Nathan P

Member
LOL! Nope. You might imagine there are "2 different ones", but there is not one atom of real, actual substantiation for your assertion.

But again (and no surprise), you miss the primary point: The fact, truth, and reality is that the great preponderance of biblical evidence is definitely against the idea that Christ is an angel. As stated earlier - There are numerous other, more important, more clear Scripture references that show the truth that Jesus Christ is God come in the flesh, the Savior and not an angel. Because of this, it is simply NOT anything resembling honest Bible study for you to deliberately ignore and avoid them. This is what it means and is to be a JW - JWs simply do not have the capacity to honestly deal with the more important, straightforward and clear verses regarding the Deity of Christ which have been posted.
I provided the proof and the first and the last is not included in rev. 1:8 and that makes it different from 22:13 that has the first and the last in there. In order for them to be the same they would have to say the same thing and they do not.
 

imJRR

Well-known member
Oh, yes vs 3 sure DOES say that Jesus is the Creator. I know what you told me and I've explained that your post was flat out wrong and worse, and your denial of what the verse very, very clearly says and shows indicates either open, deliberate dishonesty in reading, or a serious lacking in reading comprehension ability. Tell you what - I am VERY content to let any and all honest and fair-minded readers decide between us on this.
 

imJRR

Well-known member
I provided the proof and the first and the last is not included in rev. 1:8 and that makes it different from 22:13 that has the first and the last in there. In order for them to be the same they would have to say the sane thing and they do not.

Your post provided nothing in the way of real, actual proof. Tell you what - I'm very, VERY content to let any and all honest and fair-minded readers decide between us on this. No problem - Any honest and fair-minded reader will, very, very easily see and know that the great preponderance of biblical evidence is definitely against the idea that Christ is an angel. As stated earlier - There are numerous other, more important, more clear Scripture references that show the truth that Jesus Christ is God come in the flesh, the Savior and not an angel. Because of this, it is simply NOT anything resembling honest Bible study for you to deliberately ignore and avoid them.

This is what it means and is to be a JW - JWs simply do not have the capacity to honestly deal with the more important, straightforward and clear verses regarding the Deity of Christ which have been posted. Your posts regarding John 1:1-3 have already proven that.
 

Nathan P

Member
Oh, yes vs 3 sure DOES say that Jesus is the Creator. I know what you told me and I've explained that your post was flat out wrong and worse, and your denial of what the verse very, very clearly says and shows indicates either open, deliberate dishonesty in reading, or a serious lacking in reading comprehension ability. Tell you what - I am VERY content to let any and all honest and fair-minded readers decide between us on this.
Let them decide. But you are dodging the question and that is the life in the him had to have been Jesus correct?
 

Nathan P

Member
Your post provided nothing in the way of real, actual proof. Tell you what - I'm very, VERY content to let any and all honest and fair-minded readers decide between us on this.
What are you talking about and how many times do you have to be told that rev. 1:8 lacks the first and the last and thus it is not the same as 22:13?
 

imJRR

Well-known member
I'm not dodging anything. Your post was wrong and worse in what it said about John 1:3 not saying that Christ is Creator God. Any honest and fair-minded reader can read it for themselves and decide between us as to what it says and its reference to Christ. Same is true for your silly notions about Rev. 1 and 22.
 

Nathan P

Member
Your post provided nothing in the way of real, actual proof. Tell you what - I'm very, VERY content to let any and all honest and fair-minded readers decide between us on this. No problem - Any honest and fair-minded reader will, very, very easily see and know that the great preponderance of biblical evidence is definitely against the idea that Christ is an angel. As stated earlier - There are numerous other, more important, more clear Scripture references that show the truth that Jesus Christ is God come in the flesh, the Savior and not an angel. Because of this, it is simply NOT anything resembling honest Bible study for you to deliberately ignore and avoid them.

This is what it means and is to be a JW - JWs simply do not have the capacity to honestly deal with the more important, straightforward and clear verses regarding the Deity of Christ which have been posted. Your posts regarding John 1:1-3 have already proven that.
That is real actual proof and all you can say is what you want without dealing with who is who in the scriptures.
 

imJRR

Well-known member
Nope - You're wrong again. Again - The fact, truth, and reality is that the great preponderance of biblical evidence is definitely against the idea that Christ is an angel. As stated earlier - There are numerous other, more important, more clear Scripture references that show the truth that Jesus Christ is God come in the flesh, the Savior and not an angel. Because of this, it is simply NOT anything resembling honest Bible study for you to deliberately ignore and avoid them.

But - This is what it means and is to be a JW - JWs simply do not have the capacity to honestly deal with the more important, straightforward and clear verses regarding the Deity of Christ which have been posted. Your posts regarding John 1:1-3 have already proven that.

You only imagine that your imaginations about what John 1:1-3 are "proof". To say that is totally invalid as well as ridiculous is being kind.
 

Nathan P

Member
I'm not dodging anything. Your post was wrong and worse in what it said about John 1:3 not saying that Christ is Creator God. Any honest and fair-minded reader can read it for themselves and decide between us as to what it says and its reference to Christ. Same is true for your silly notions about Rev. 1 and 22.
Yes you are dodging the point and that is the life in the him had to have been Jesus correct? I bet you keep dodging that because you know what it will prove.
 

Nathan P

Member
Nope - You're wrong again. Again - The fact, truth, and reality is that the great preponderance of biblical evidence is definitely against the idea that Christ is an angel. As stated earlier - There are numerous other, more important, more clear Scripture references that show the truth that Jesus Christ is God come in the flesh, the Savior and not an angel. Because of this, it is simply NOT anything resembling honest Bible study for you to deliberately ignore and avoid them.

But - This is what it means and is to be a JW - JWs simply do not have the capacity to honestly deal with the more important, straightforward and clear verses regarding the Deity of Christ which have been posted. Your posts regarding John 1:1-3 have already proven that.

You only imagine that your imaginations about what John 1:1-3 are "proof". To say that is totally invalid as well as ridiculous is being kind.
I am completely on track and right by acknowledging that Jesus was the life in the him and thus the him could not have been Jesus too. Meaning that leaves only the Father as being the him who is the creator.
 

imJRR

Well-known member
Yes you are dodging the point and that is the life in the him had to have been Jesus correct? I bet you keep dodging that because you know what it will prove.

Nope. Not dodging at all - Certainly not because YOU say so. I am the one who is completely on track. Your posts are running away. Here's why that's true: Your post was wrong and worse in what it said about John 1:3 not saying that Christ is Creator God. Any honest and fair-minded reader can read it for themselves and clearly see what it says and its reference to Christ.
 
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Nathan P

Member
Nope. Not dodging at all - Certainly not because YOU say so. I am the one who is completely on track. Your posts are running away. Here's why that's true: Your post was wrong and worse in what it said about John 1:3 not saying that Christ is Creator God. Any honest and fair-minded reader can read it for themselves and clearly see what it says and its reference to Christ. This is not refutable.
I have refuted it already and you confirm that by refusing to acknowledge that since Jesus was the life in the him, then the him could not have been Jesus too.
 

imJRR

Well-known member
Nope - You have only imagined that you have refuted it. Your post was wrong and worse in what it said about John 1:3 not saying that Christ is Creator God. It most certainly and definitely DOES and any honest and fair-minded reader can read it for themselves and clearly see what it says and its reference to Christ.

It's VERY simple for honest people to understand:

1 In the beginning was the Word (That refers to Christ, Nathan.)
and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (That refers to Christ, Nathan.)
2 He was in the beginning with God. (That refers to Christ, Nathan.)
3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being. (That refers to Christ, Nathan.)
 
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Nathan P

Member
Nope - You have only imagined that you have refuted it. Your post was wrong and worse in what it said about John 1:3 not saying that Christ is Creator God. It most certainly and definitely DOES and any honest and fair-minded reader can read it for themselves and clearly see what it says and its reference to Christ.

It's VERY simple for honest people to understand:

1 In the beginning was the Word (That refers to Christ, Nathan.)
and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (That refers to Christ, Nathan.)
2 He was in the beginning with God. (That refers to Christ, Nathan.)
3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being. (That refers to Christ, Nathan.)
The other thing is there was no documented Son of God until the Word became flesh and that means John 1 can not be referring to Christ as you say because Christ as mentioned did not exist until the Word became flesh. You have to say from your point that John 1 is referring to the Word. Notice it says at John 1:1 in the beginning was the Word and not Christ?
 

imJRR

Well-known member
LOL! Your post does a nice job of deliberately avoiding the honest reading and understanding of John 1:1-3.
Not unexpected.

As for "the other thing" - LOL! Your posts continue to show either a glaring dishonesty or an extremely sad inability when it comes to reading comprehension. I am very content to let readers come to their own idea as to which. Anyone who has ever honestly studied the Prologue of the Gospel of John understands that A) It is about Jesus Christ, and B) the phrase "In the Beginning" shows that the Word, who is Jesus Christ was already with God when all things began. Your idea that "there was no documented Son of God until the Word became flesh" reflects (again) either deliberate dishonesty or pitiful inability in terms of reading comprehension. The Apostle John himself, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, wrote and documented that the Word/Christ most certainly and most definitely existed with the Father LONG before He became Incarnate. He was already with the Father before the world ever began.
 
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