Did Jesus create the angels?

Nathan P

Active member
LOL! Your post does a nice job of deliberately avoiding the honest reading and understanding of John 1:1-3.
Not unexpected.

As for "the other thing" - LOL! Your posts continue to show either a glaring dishonesty or an extremely sad inability when it comes to reading comprehension. I am very content to let readers come to their own idea as to which. Anyone who has ever honestly studied the Prologue of the Gospel of John understands that A) It is about Jesus Christ, and B) the phrase "In the Beginning" shows that the Word, who is Jesus Christ was already with God when all things began. Your idea that "there was no documented Son of God until the Word became flesh" reflects (again) either deliberate dishonesty or pitiful inability in terms of reading comprehension. The Apostle John himself, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, wrote and documented that the Word/Christ most certainly and most definitely existed with the Father LONG before He became Incarnate. He was already with the Father before the world ever began.
He was with the Father before the world began (as the Word and not Jesus) and the world was created in the beginning. It clearly says at John 1 in the beginning was the Word and not Jesus. I am reading it perfectly and not inferring it with my biased opinion of what it means.
 

imJRR

Well-known member
The Word IS Jesus Christ. That's Who is being referred to in verse 14. This is irrefutable.
The Word - He who was with the Father in the beginning - who is God - became Incarnate in Jesus Christ.
Jesus Christ is God Manifest, God Incarnate. This is the witness of Scripture. There are plenty of Scriptures that say and show this.
What your post ends up doing is splitting Him. It's like asking, "When He walked into a room, who came in first, the Word, Jesus, or Christ?"
That's not only silly nonsense, it's not really a very ethical way to treat Scripture.
Definitely not "reading it perfectly and not inferring it with biased opinions" - That idea is your imagination again.
 

Nathan P

Active member
The Word IS Jesus Christ. That's Who is being referred to in verse 14. This is irrefutable.
The Word - He who was with the Father in the beginning - who is God - became Incarnate in Jesus Christ.
Jesus Christ is God Manifest, God Incarnate. This is the witness of Scripture. There are plenty of Scriptures that say and show this.
What your post ends up doing is splitting Him. It's like asking, "When He walked into a room, who came in first, the Word, Jesus, or Christ?"
That's not only silly nonsense, it's not really a very ethical way to treat Scripture.
Definitely not "reading it perfectly and not inferring it with biased opinions" - That idea is your imagination again.
It says at vs 14 the Word became human and lived here on earth among us and only then is he known as Jesus. It is irrefutable that only after he became human and lived among them was he known as Jesus. Your own scripture sank you with a direct hit.
 

imJRR

Well-known member
LOL! Only in your imagination. Like I said - What your post ends up doing is splitting Him. It's like asking, "When He walked into a room, who came in first, the Word, Jesus, or Christ?"
That's not only silly nonsense, it's not really a very ethical way to treat Scripture.
This is what it means and is to be a JW.
 

Nathan P

Active member
LOL! Only in your imagination. Like I said - What your post ends up doing is splitting Him. It's like asking, "When He walked into a room, who came in first, the Word, Jesus, or Christ?"
That's not only silly nonsense, it's not really a very ethical way to treat Scripture.
This is what it means and is to be a JW.
At matt. 1:21 an angel of the Lord told Joseph the child would be named Jesus and then at vs 25 Joseph named him Jesus. For a fact that is the first documented scripture of one called Jesus.
 

imJRR

Well-known member
Thank you for that Scripture! What you're missing (possibly/probably intentionally) is the fact that He had the name "Jesus" before He was ever born! Before He ever came into this world as God Incarnate, that was His name! That means that HE chose His own name! He knew what His name would be before He came. And that means that there IS documentation of Jesus Christ before He was born.

I can't tell you how great it is that you yourself went to that Scripture! You yourself have proven it, Nathan!
 
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Nathan P

Active member
Thank you for that Scripture! What you're missing (possibly/probably intentionally) is the fact that He had the name "Jesus" before He was ever born! Before He ever came into this world as God Incarnate, that was His name! That means that HE chose His own name! He knew what His name would be before He came. And that means that there IS documentation of Jesus Christ before He was born.

I can't tell you how great it is that you yourself went to that Scripture! You yourself have proven it, Nathan!
Then provide the scripture where he had the name Jesus before he ever came into this world? Until you can he was only known by Jesus when Joseph named him Jesus. The scripture you provide has to clearly have him being referred to as Jesus and not a term you want it to mean he was known as Jesus before the Word became flesh?
 

Nathan P

Active member
Nope - You have only imagined that you have refuted it. Your post was wrong and worse in what it said about John 1:3 not saying that Christ is Creator God. It most certainly and definitely DOES and any honest and fair-minded reader can read it for themselves and clearly see what it says and its reference to Christ.

It's VERY simple for honest people to understand:

1 In the beginning was the Word (That refers to Christ, Nathan.)
and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (That refers to Christ, Nathan.)
2 He was in the beginning with God. (That refers to Christ, Nathan.)
3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being. (That refers to Christ, Nathan.)
No John 1:2 does not refer to Jesus and I have the Merriam Webster definition of the word "with" in front of me. For two it is a function word to indicate a party in an action or to indicate the object of attention. For one it says if he is for lower taxes with him. The subject is him because it indicates the party in an action. Now at Joh 1:2 it says He was in the beginning with God and according to the dictionary the subject or the party in the action is God and that is who the subject is at John 1:2. You have your chance with the dictionary definition to prove otherwise?
 

Nathan P

Active member
No John 1:2 does not refer to Jesus and I have the Merriam Webster definition of the word "with" in front of me. For two it is a function word to indicate a party in an action or to indicate the object of attention. For one it says if he is for lower taxes with him. The subject is him because it indicates the party in an action. Now at Joh 1:2 it says He was in the beginning with God and according to the dictionary the subject or the party in the action is God and that is who the subject is at John 1:2. You have your chance with the dictionary definition to prove otherwise?
Try https://www.merriam-webster.com dictionary >with
 
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imJRR

Well-known member
Then provide the scripture where he had the name Jesus before he ever came into this world? Until you can he was only known by Jesus when Joseph named him Jesus. The scripture you provide has to clearly have him being referred to as Jesus and not a term you want it to mean he was known as Jesus before the Word became flesh?


LOL! It's too late for you to protest any more, Nathan - The "provision" is already in the very verse you yourself referred to. The verse clearly says and shows that He had the name "Jesus" BEFORE He was ever born! Before He ever came into this world as God Incarnate, that was His name! That means that HE CHOSE His own name - BEFORE He was born! He knew what His name would be BEFORE He came. That was WHY the angel spoke to Joseph regarding the name "Jesus". It had already been determined beforehand. And that means that there IS documentation of Jesus Christ before He was born. The words of the angel prove that. Again - Thanks for referring to that verse! By doing so, you yourself have provided and proven the documentation of Jesus Christ before He was born. Way to go!

As for John 1:2 - Oh, yes, it most certainly, most definitely DOES refer to Jesus Christ. It can't refer to anyone else - No one else is referred to! In John 1:1 there are just two Persons referred to - the Word and God And the verse says The Word was God. And The "Word" who is none other than Jesus Christ became flesh. Verse 14 shows and proves that irrefutably. Verse 14 can't possibly refer to anyone else. Why? Because this is the Gospel (The Good News of Jesus Christ) written by the Apostle John. Case closed.

Oh, and the word "with" in John 1:1? Thanks for bringing that up! That word in the Greek means a LOT more than what you provided. Here is what noted Greek scholar A.T. Robertson writes about it:
With God (προς τον θεον). Though existing eternally with God the Logos was in perfect fellowship with God. Προς with the accusative presents a plane of equality and intimacy, face to face with each other."

The Expanded Bible puts it this way: In the beginning (remember - that means before Creation itself)·there was the Word [the Word already existed; the Word refers to Christ, God’s revelation of himself]. The Word was ·with [in the presence of; in intimate relationship with] God [ the Father], and the Word was [fully] God.

Going on - Robertson writes:
Verse 2 The same (ουτος). "This one," the Logos of verse John 1:1 (NAS) repeated for clarity, characteristic of John's style. He links together into one phrase two of the ideas already stated separately, "in the beginning He was with God," "afterwards in time He came to be with man" (Marcus Dods). Thus John clearly states of the Logos Pre-existence before Incarnation, Personality, Deity.

Now - Nathan - Let's get VERY real here: Although you can and probably will deny (and likely run away from) the above, you are NOT ANYWHERE NEAR the scholarship of A.T. Robertson. And so your denial means absolutely nothing. It is totally without any merit or value at all.
 
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Nathan P

Active member
LOL! It's too late for you to protest any more, Nathan - The "provision" is already in the very verse you yourself referred to. The verse clearly says and shows that He had the name "Jesus" BEFORE He was ever born! Before He ever came into this world as God Incarnate, that was His name! That means that HE CHOSE His own name - BEFORE He was born! He knew what His name would be BEFORE He came. That was WHY the angel spoke to Joseph regarding the name "Jesus". It had already been determined beforehand. And that means that there IS documentation of Jesus Christ before He was born. The words of the angel prove that. Again - Thanks for referring to that verse! By doing so, you yourself have provided and proven the documentation of Jesus Christ before He was born. Way to go!

As for John 1:2 - Oh, yes, it most certainly, most definitely DOES refer to Jesus Christ. It can't refer to anyone else - No one else is referred to! In John 1:1 there are just two Persons referred to - the Word and God And the verse says The Word was God. And The "Word" who is none other than Jesus Christ became flesh. Verse 14 shows and proves that irrefutably. Verse 14 can't possibly refer to anyone else. Why? Because this is the Gospel (The Good News of Jesus Christ) written by the Apostle John. Case closed.

Oh, and the word "with" in John 1:1? Thanks for bringing that up! That word in the Greek means a LOT more than what you provided. Here is what noted Greek scholar A.T. Robertson writes about it:
With God (προς τον θεον). Though existing eternally with God the Logos was in perfect fellowship with God. Προς with the accusative presents a plane of equality and intimacy, face to face with each other."

The Expanded Bible puts it this way: In the beginning (remember - that means before Creation itself)·there was the Word [the Word already existed; the Word refers to Christ, God’s revelation of himself]. The Word was ·with [in the presence of; in intimate relationship with] God [ the Father], and the Word was [fully] God.

Going on - Robertson writes:
Verse 2 The same (ουτος). "This one," the Logos of verse John 1:1 (NAS) repeated for clarity, characteristic of John's style. He links together into one phrase two of the ideas already stated separately, "in the beginning He was with God," "afterwards in time He came to be with man" (Marcus Dods). Thus John clearly states of the Logos Pre-existence before Incarnation, Personality, Deity.

Now - Nathan - Let's get VERY real here: Although you can and probably will deny (and likely run away from) the above, you are NOT ANYWHERE NEAR the scholarship of A.T. Robertson. And so your denial means absolutely nothing. It is totally without any merit or value at all.
You say he knew what his name would be and yet you can provide no proof. The vs you cite John 1:14 says the Word became human and thus only after he was human was he known as Jesus. You have provided no proof the Word refers to Jesus before the Word became flesh. And Robertson wrote first he was in the beginning with God and afterwards he came to be with men and that is when Joseph named him Jesus at matt. 1:25. I clearly presented evidence of when he was first called Jesus and you need to do the same to back up your claim of his name or his pre-existence of being Jesus??
 

imJRR

Well-known member
LOL! Nope - You're wrong again, and the very verse that you yourself referred to proves that. He was first called "Jesus" when HE Himself chose the name BEFORE He was born - actually BEFORE HE WAS EVEN CONCEIVED according to Luke 1:31! All the angel messengers did was tell Joseph and Mary the name that HE Himself had already chosen. And yes, I most definitely did show and prove that the Word refers to Jesus Christ. It can't possibly refer to anyone else because (going back to the Gospel of John) "The Word was God". And The "Word" is none other than Jesus Christ. Verse 14 shows and proves that irrefutably. Verse 14 can't possibly refer to anyone else. Why? Because this is the Gospel (The Good News of Jesus Christ) written by the Apostle John. Case closed.
 
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Nathan P

Active member
LOL! Nope - You're wrong again, and the very verse that you yourself referred to proves that. He was first called "Jesus" when HE Himself chose the name BEFORE He was born - actually BEFORE HE WAS EVEN CONCEIVED according to Luke 1:31! All the angel messengers did was tell Joseph and Mary the name that HE Himself had already chosen. And yes, I most definitely did show and prove that the Word refers to Jesus Christ. It can't possibly refer to anyone else because (going back to the Gospel of John) "The Word was God". And The "Word" is none other than Jesus Christ. Verse 14 shows and proves that irrefutably. Verse 14 can't possibly refer to anyone else. Why? Because this is the Gospel (The Good News of Jesus Christ) written by the Apostle John. Case closed.
No at Luke 1: 30-31 the angel told her you are to name him Jesus and nowhere does it say Jesus chose the name before he was born. And at John 1:14 the only Son of the Father is after he became human like you have already been told. You keep grasping at straws like they say.
 

Nathan P

Active member
LOL! Nope - You're wrong again, and the very verse that you yourself referred to proves that. He was first called "Jesus" when HE Himself chose the name BEFORE He was born - actually BEFORE HE WAS EVEN CONCEIVED according to Luke 1:31! All the angel messengers did was tell Joseph and Mary the name that HE Himself had already chosen. And yes, I most definitely did show and prove that the Word refers to Jesus Christ. It can't possibly refer to anyone else because (going back to the Gospel of John) "The Word was God". And The "Word" is none other than Jesus Christ. Verse 14 shows and proves that irrefutably. Verse 14 can't possibly refer to anyone else. Why? Because this is the Gospel (The Good News of Jesus Christ) written by the Apostle John. Case closed.
Listen and read at Luke 1:35 the angel said the baby born to you will be holy and he will be called the Son of God. Or it was not until Jesus was born that there is documentation that anyone other than Jesus would be called the Son of God.

And Luke 1:31 says she is to call the one born to her Jesus and not that Jesus himself chose the name before he was born.
 
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imJRR

Well-known member
LOL! Wrong again, and here's why and how: Since the name Jesus was chosen BEFORE He was born - BEFORE HE WAS EVEN CONCEIVED - then just WHO do you think chose the name - the angel? Nope. HE did. All the angel messenger did was tell Joseph and Mary the name that HE had already chosen.

It's done, Nathan. And you yourself helped tremendously by providing the documentation of His having the name "Jesus" before He was born or even conceived. Thank you!
 

Nathan P

Active member
LOL! Wrong again, and here's why and how: Since the name Jesus was chosen BEFORE He was born - BEFORE HE WAS EVEN CONCEIVED - then just WHO do you think chose the name - the angel? Nope. HE did. All the angel messenger did was tell Joseph and Mary the name that HE had already chosen.

It's done, Nathan. And you yourself helped tremendously by providing the documentation of His having the name "Jesus" before He was born or even conceived. Thank you!
We are not talking about a name before he was born because prophecies foretold of his being on earth. We are talking evidence that a Son of God existed before the Word became flesh and not prophecies and such.

And in the beginning was the Word does not refer to Christ. Let me see you prove it?
 

Nathan P

Active member
LOL! Wrong again, and here's why and how: Since the name Jesus was chosen BEFORE He was born - BEFORE HE WAS EVEN CONCEIVED - then just WHO do you think chose the name - the angel? Nope. HE did. All the angel messenger did was tell Joseph and Mary the name that HE had already chosen.

It's done, Nathan. And you yourself helped tremendously by providing the documentation of His having the name "Jesus" before He was born or even conceived. Thank you!
No I proved he did not have the name Jesus until he was on the earth because John 1:14 is talking about once he became human and they seen his glory the only Son of the Father.
 

imJRR

Well-known member
Nope. You're still VERY much in the wrong, Nathan, and here's how and why: He had the name Jesus before He was even conceived. The words of the angel in Luke 1:31 verse prove that beyond any question. Your idea that you "proved that he did not have the name Jesus until he was on the earth" is nothing less than an open, blatant, intentional falsehood. He wasn't here on earth at the time of Luke 1:31. He wasn't even in Mary's womb.

As for the idea that John 1:1 does not refer to Christ - LOL! That is just another open, blatant, intentional falsehood. Here's why that's true: Any honest person who is reading John 1:1-18 understands, first of all, that this is the Gospel - The good news about Jesus Christ. He's the subject that John's writing about. He's what the Book is about. Any honest person very, very easily comprehends that "the Word" in verse 1 refers to Christ in vs. 14. It is glaringly obvious.

And - and this ABSOLUTELY FABULOUS: Even YOU have said it, Nathan. Here's the proof: First you say that "the Word does not refer to Christ". But THEN, in your very next post, you yourself refer to John 1:14. And the word "he" you are using in your post DOES refer to Christ! You yourself are talking about Christ, and you're using John 1:14 to do so - because you know full well that "the Word" DOES refer to Him!

Thank you SO MUCH for doing this, Nathan! It is absolutely FABULOUS that you have done this!
 
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Nathan P

Active member
Nope. You're still VERY much in the wrong, Nathan, and here's how and why: He had the name Jesus before He was even conceived. The words of the angel in Luke 1:31 verse prove that beyond any question. Your idea that you "proved that he did not have the name Jesus until he was on the earth" is nothing less than an open, blatant, intentional falsehood. He wasn't here on earth at the time of Luke 1:31. He wasn't even in Mary's womb.

As for the idea that John 1:1 does not refer to Christ - LOL! That is just another open, blatant, intentional falsehood. Here's why that's true: Any honest person who is reading John 1:1-18 understands, first of all, that this is the Gospel - The good news about Jesus Christ. He's the subject that John's writing about. He's what the Book is about. Any honest person very, very easily comprehends that "the Word" in verse 1 refers to Christ in vs. 14. It is glaringly obvious.

And - and this ABSOLUTELY FABULOUS: Even YOU have said it, Nathan. Here's the proof: First you say that "the Word does not refer to Christ". But THEN, in your very next post, you yourself refer to John 1:14. And the word "he" you are using in your post DOES refer to Christ! You yourself are talking about Christ, and you're using John 1:14 to do so - because you know full well that "the Word" DOES refer to Him!

Thank you SO MUCH for doing this, Nathan! It is absolutely FABULOUS that you have done this!
Luke 1:31 says you will become pregnant and have a son and you are to name him Jesus. Not until he is born at Luke 1:31 is he to be called Jesus. John 1:14 only applies to Jesus when he becomes human. It says the Word (not Jesus) became human and lived here on earth among us. It clearly says it is the Word and not Jesus who became human and only after he is human does he get the name Jesus.

Also go to matt. 1:25 and Joseph named him Jesus. He did not have the name Jesus until Joseph named him Jesus.
 
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imJRR

Well-known member
LOL! Wrong again. The point - which you keep (obviously deliberately) missing - is that the message of His name was given BEFORE HE WAS EVEN CONCEIVED.
He had the name BEFORE HE WAS EVEN CONCEIVED.
The Word in John 1:1 and John 1:14 is Jesus Christ. Even YOU YOURSELF said so in your post.
Thanks for doing that!

This means that you are TOTALLY and COMPLETELY WRONG when you say, "He did not have the name Jesus until Joseph named him Jesus."
He had it BEFORE HE WAS EVEN CONCEIVED. That's what Luke 1:31 SAYS.
 
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