Did Jesus create the angels?

James Jones

New Member
No Christian scripture teaches that Jesus was created.

Could you please point out where I'm making these claims? Usually, clear proof is necessary from those who are making these claims.

Regardless, logic works just fine with me. An unchanging god cannot become a father. God is either eternally the father or he must change. If he suddenly becomes a father, then prior to that moment he was eternally alone.

Now I will be the first to point out that God doesn't need anyone so he very well spend eternity alone. It just doesn't strike me as a very loving god.
Your in agreement with the Atheists
 

James Jones

New Member
It is you who can not deal with the fact that it is the Father who is speaking at rev. 1:8. You refuse to acknowledge at 1:8 it says I am the Alpha and the Omega the beginning and the end, but at 22:13 it says I am the Alpha and Omega the First and the Last the Beginning and the end. Those are 2 different ones because the first one does not contain the First and the Last.
So you are a denier of Christ, I rest my point
 

James Jones

New Member
And it is clear that the dialogue is between Thomas and Jesus, his acclaim not being Godward but responding directly toward Jesus.
 

James Jones

New Member
Did Jesus rebuke Thomas for calling him God in v. 28? Of course not. In classic style Jesus embraced Thomas's proclamation and did not deny him that.
 

imJRR

Well-known member
James Jones, I am going to make a request of you: Please learn how to edit your posts so that you can have more than one sentence or thought in a post. You have the option to edit your postings for a half hour after they are made to include other thoughts that may come after you have initially posted. This will keep the forum from becoming cluttered with one liners. Thank you in advance.
 

James Jones

New Member
John 1:3, All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. Colossians 1:17, And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. Jesus was no more the first one created, anymore than he was the first one to be raised from the dead. God couldn't have been alone before he allegedly created Jesus, because apart from Jesus not even one thing came into existence. The NWT is just a paraphrase Bible. So they added the word "other," to show that Jesus is not before all things. If the Watchtower had the Holy Spirit they would understand that Jesus is before all creation, and has existed in eternity with the Father before creation, as John 1:2 has stated.
 

James Jones

New Member
John 1:3, All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. Colossians 1:17, And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. Jesus was no more the first one created, anymore than he was the first one to be raised from the dead. God couldn't have been alone before he allegedly created Jesus, because apart from Jesus not even one thing came into existence. The NWT is just a paraphrase Bible. So they added the word "other," to show that Jesus is not before all things. If the Watchtower had the Holy Spirit they would understand that Jesus is before all creation, and has existed in eternity with the Father before creation, as John 1:2 has stated.
 

imJRR

Well-known member
? James Jones, is there some particular reason why you posted the same post twice, but 6 hours apart?
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
Did Jesus rebuke Thomas for calling him God in v. 28? Of course not.
Fallacy of Begging the Question.
In classic style Jesus embraced Thomas's proclamation and did not deny him that.
Thomas' words to Jesus in Greek literally read, "the Lord of me and the God of me." In Greek this is how one would refer to two persons. If one wanted to refer to one person he would say, "the Lord and God of me." This is confirmed by the first and Sixth Granville Sharp rules. However, Trinitarians make a convenient exception to the sixth rule for this particular verse.

Both nouns, (1) Lord, and (2) God, are each qualified by the definite article ('the'). Both nouns, (1) Lord, and (2) God, are qualified by the words "of me." This is also telling. Thomas could have said, "the Lord and the God of me." But he did not.
 

imJRR

Well-known member
Fallacy of Begging the Question.

Thomas' words to Jesus in Greek literally read, "the Lord of me and the God of me." In Greek this is how one would refer to two persons. If one wanted to refer to one person he would say, "the Lord and God of me." This is confirmed by the first and Sixth Granville Sharp rules. However, Trinitarians make a convenient exception to the sixth rule for this particular verse.

Both nouns, (1) Lord, and (2) God, are each qualified by the definite article ('the'). Both nouns, (1) Lord, and (2) God, are qualified by the words "of me." This is also telling. Thomas could have said, "the Lord and the God of me." But he did not.

Total nonsense. Thomas was looking right at Jesus standing before him and speaking directly TO Jesus when he made his declaration. He was only speaking to ONE person - Jesus Christ. The context clearly shows that.
 

John t

Super Member
Jesus didn't even officially receive his name until he was eight days old. This is a common error everyone makes. We tend to conflate a name used to identify someone with who they are. As closely related as identification is to identity; identification is not identity.

The prophet Isaiah would not agree with that :

Isaiah 7:
14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Look! the virgin is with child and she is about to give birth to a son, and she shall call his name ‘God with us.’ 15 He shall eat curds and honey until he knows to reject the evil and to choose the good. 16 For before the boy knows to reject the evil and to choose the good, ⌞the land whose two kings you dread will be abandoned.⌟


isaiah 9:
6 For a child has been born for us;
a son has been given to us.
And the dominion will be on his shoulder,
and his name is called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
 

rod.ney

Well-known member
No the Word only existed in the beginning like you say and thus the Word had to have been created because only God existed before the beginning. God is from everlasting to everlasting which means without beginning or end. Someone has to prove the Word is from everlasting to everlasting and not just everlasting?
The WORD " was God " in John 1:1! Thus He pre-existed ETERNALLY with no beginning! Get it?! He was God before He became Flesh ( incarnate ) in John 1:14 as the God-Man then called Jesus! So since He was God, he had no beginning, but the CHANGE ( He became Flesh in John 1:14 - God in the Flesh or God-Man ) had a beginning the moment Mary became pregnant when GOD ( the Father & Holy Spirit ) caused it to happen! See Luke 1:34-35 and Matt.1:20! He had no Biological human father!
 
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