Actually John 1:1 a means that the word already existed in the beginning making the word uncreated. Even Jewish Literatures points to an uncreated word. In John 1:1 c the word was God. So yes the scriptures clearly state that the Word was God.
Did Jesus create the angels?
- Thread starter jamesh
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Bob Carabbio
Well-known member
But, of course you're only playing silly "Word Games". Since the WORD (who was with God, and Who WAS God) is obviously eternal, then OF COURSE He would have been there in whatever you think the "beginning" was.
e was eternal only from when in the beginning started.
Prove it means the Word already existed before the beginning? Until you can like you say the Word already existed in the beginning and not before the beginning. I mean I am supposed to take your word without proof?
I already did that in the Language forum
I want proof and not for you to state it is so without proof? You did say the Word already existed in the beginning correct?
Yes! John 1;2 He was in the beginning with God. Notice the the Word took on the masculine form "He".
ow many times does this have to be explained to you all that since he was in the beginning with God he could not have been with God before the beginning?
Bob Carabbio
Well-known member
Chuckle -
Where is your proof. Again in the beginning was the Word and that is what it means that in the beginning was the Word and not before the beginning.
The imperfect form of eime (Greek) is a verbal form that points to a state of existence at the time of speaking.
Yes, by the same token, Jesus didn't exist prior to the incarnation. Another example would be that an adult doesn't exist prior to becoming an adolescent. Adolescents do not exist prior to infancy, etc.
Where was Jesus before the incarnation? Phillipians 1 He emptied Himself. While he was in heaven he decided to empty Himself and take on the form of a man. Not, "He emptied Himself" Note also it was His own decision. Once again we see preexistence
Philippians 2:7
This is the fallacy of Begging the Question. Jesus was a man, and John quite clearly states that "the word became flesh". Human beings do not become human beings. The word was not a human being named Jesus until the word "became" flesh. Jesus didn't even have a name for the first nine months and eight days of his fleshly existence.
Again, you still haven't supplied us with any evidence to support this contradictory claim that a human being took on human form.
Preexistence is not equivalent to existing as a human being. The texts are clear in pointing out that he wasn't human before he "became" flesh. It makes no sense to claim that a human being named Jesus became a human being named Jesus. It's a contradiction. Scripture never makes these contradictory claims.
Instead, we read of the word of God coming from God, and becoming incarnate as a human being. This doesn't negate the fact that he's the word of God, but it does point out that he couldn't have been a human being named Jesus until he actually became a human being named Jesus.
When we add to this the fact that Jesus' teaching begins with the injunction to "deny yourself", we can safely assume that he took his own advice. Therefore it is NOT Jesus who is "the way, the truth and the life", but Christ. It is Christ who denies himself. It is Christ who denies his earthly persona, and discards it as nothing more than trash.
It is not Jesus, the human being who is the way, the truth and the life, but the fullness of the godhead indwelling in that flesh body. The body does not give life, but life is given to the body, and that life is Christ.
God's salvation comes through selfless sacrificial love, and God's salvation is literally what the name, Yeshua means. How is it accomplished? By selfless sacrificial loving obedience to God's will.
Bob Carabbio
Well-known member
Play your Word games, y'all. Whatever make you feel better and fits you silly theology!!!
You do understand that at Philippians 2:7 humans are talking and they have to speak of how they knew Jesus and that was they knew him as Jesus and not the Word?
Believe what you wish.
Yes - Definitely an outright and God-cursed lie about Christ. It is also in direct opposition to what He said for Himself. It is also an outstanding example of proof that what JWs believe doesn't really come from the Bible, but is man-made-up. A created being couldn't possibly claim what Christ openly claims for Himself in John 14:9.
The clearly reject the gospel.
Christ is not created, but "begotten". However, Jesus was a naturally born human beings and like all human beings in flesh bodies, they are objective works of creation. Big difference, and Christ, Paul, etc. all point out that it is God who resides within these flesh bodies.
The takeaway here is in being able to distinguish between the contents and the container rather than conflating the two. It isn't just the JW's that are confused when it comes to this issue.