Did Jesus create the angels?

froggy

Active member
Because it says in the beginning was the Word. In the beginning means in the beginning and not before or after the beginning.
Actually John 1:1 a means that the word already existed in the beginning making the word uncreated. Even Jewish Literatures points to an uncreated word. In John 1:1 c the word was God. So yes the scriptures clearly state that the Word was God.
 

Bob Carabbio

Well-known member
In the beginning means in the beginning and not before or after the beginning.
But, of course you're only playing silly "Word Games". Since the WORD (who was with God, and Who WAS God) is obviously eternal, then OF COURSE He would have been there in whatever you think the "beginning" was.
 

Nathan P

Member
But, of course you're only playing silly "Word Games". Since the WORD (who was with God, and Who WAS God) is obviously eternal, then OF COURSE He would have been there in whatever you think the "beginning" was.
e was eternal only from when in the beginning started.
 

Nathan P

Member
Actually John 1:1 a means that the word already existed in the beginning making the word uncreated. Even Jewish Literatures points to an uncreated word. In John 1:1 c the word was God. So yes the scriptures clearly state that the Word was God.
Prove it means the Word already existed before the beginning? Until you can like you say the Word already existed in the beginning and not before the beginning. I mean I am supposed to take your word without proof?
 

froggy

Active member
Prove it means the Word already existed before the beginning? Until you can like you say the Word already existed in the beginning and not before the beginning. I mean I am supposed to take your word without proof?
I already did that in the Language forum
 

froggy

Active member
I want proof and not for you to state it is so without proof? You did say the Word already existed in the beginning correct?
Yes! John 1;2 He was in the beginning with God. Notice the the Word took on the masculine form "He".
 

Nathan P

Member
Yes! John 1;2 He was in the beginning with God. Notice the the Word took on the masculine form "He".
ow many times does this have to be explained to you all that since he was in the beginning with God he could not have been with God before the beginning?
 

froggy

Active member
Where is your proof. Again in the beginning was the Word and that is what it means that in the beginning was the Word and not before the beginning.
The imperfect form of eime (Greek) is a verbal form that points to a state of existence at the time of speaking.
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
That is what I have been trying to tell them that things were made through the Word and not the man Jesus after the Word became flesh.
Yes, by the same token, Jesus didn't exist prior to the incarnation. Another example would be that an adult doesn't exist prior to becoming an adolescent. Adolescents do not exist prior to infancy, etc.
 

froggy

Active member
Yes, by the same token, Jesus didn't exist prior to the incarnation. Another example would be that an adult doesn't exist prior to becoming an adolescent. Adolescents do not exist prior to infancy, etc.
Where was Jesus before the incarnation? Phillipians 1 He emptied Himself. While he was in heaven he decided to empty Himself and take on the form of a man. Not, "He emptied Himself" Note also it was His own decision. Once again we see preexistence

Philippians 2:7
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
Where was Jesus before the incarnation?
This is the fallacy of Begging the Question. Jesus was a man, and John quite clearly states that "the word became flesh". Human beings do not become human beings. The word was not a human being named Jesus until the word "became" flesh. Jesus didn't even have a name for the first nine months and eight days of his fleshly existence.
Phillipians 1 He emptied Himself. While he was in heaven he decided to empty Himself and take on the form of a man.

Again, you still haven't supplied us with any evidence to support this contradictory claim that a human being took on human form.
Not, "He emptied Himself" Note also it was His own decision. Once again we see preexistence

Philippians 2:7
Preexistence is not equivalent to existing as a human being. The texts are clear in pointing out that he wasn't human before he "became" flesh. It makes no sense to claim that a human being named Jesus became a human being named Jesus. It's a contradiction. Scripture never makes these contradictory claims.

Instead, we read of the word of God coming from God, and becoming incarnate as a human being. This doesn't negate the fact that he's the word of God, but it does point out that he couldn't have been a human being named Jesus until he actually became a human being named Jesus.

When we add to this the fact that Jesus' teaching begins with the injunction to "deny yourself", we can safely assume that he took his own advice. Therefore it is NOT Jesus who is "the way, the truth and the life", but Christ. It is Christ who denies himself. It is Christ who denies his earthly persona, and discards it as nothing more than trash.

It is not Jesus, the human being who is the way, the truth and the life, but the fullness of the godhead indwelling in that flesh body. The body does not give life, but life is given to the body, and that life is Christ.

God's salvation comes through selfless sacrificial love, and God's salvation is literally what the name, Yeshua means. How is it accomplished? By selfless sacrificial loving obedience to God's will.
 

Bob Carabbio

Well-known member
Where is your proof. Again in the beginning was the Word and that is what it means that in the beginning was the Word and not before the beginning.
Play your Word games, y'all. Whatever make you feel better and fits you silly theology!!!
 

Nathan P

Member
Play your Word games, y'all. Whatever make you feel better and fits you silly theol

Where was Jesus before the incarnation? Phillipians 1 He emptied Himself. While he was in heaven he decided to empty Himself and take on the form of a man. Not, "He emptied Himself" Note also it was His own decision. Once again we see preexistence

Philippians 2:7
You do understand that at Philippians 2:7 humans are talking and they have to speak of how they knew Jesus and that was they knew him as Jesus and not the Word?
 

e v e

Super Member
According to jw.org Jesus did create the angels.
When Was Jesus Created, and Why Is He Called God’s Son?

When was Jesus created?​

"God created Jesus before creating Adam. In fact, God created Jesus and then used him to make everything else, including the angels. That is why the Bible calls Jesus “the firstborn of all creation” by God.—Read Colossians 1:15, 16.

Before he was born in Bethlehem, Jesus lived as a spirit creature in heaven. When the time came, God transferred Jesus’ life from heaven to Mary’s womb so that he could be born as a human.—Read Luke 1:30-32; John 6:38; 8:23."

But the Bible says that God created the angels. Nehemiah 9:6, "Thou ALONE art the Lord, Thou hast made the heavens, The heaven of the heavens with all their host. The earth and all that is on it, The seas and all that is in them, Thou dost give life to all of them And the heavenly host bows down before Thee."

So how can Jesus have created the angels since God says He created them? Moreover, we read from the Jw's above , "Jesus lived as a spirit creature in heaven." And who was that spirit creature? It was none other than Jesus as Michael the arc angel who God created. Also notice that the spirit creature Jesus who is also Michael had his life transferred into Mary's womb so that he could be born a human. How do the Jw's reconcile these "glaring" contradictions of the Bible?


In Him,
herman
horrible..
it makes Christ out to be less than deity.

that text is an outright lie about Christ. : (
 

imJRR

Active member
horrible..
it makes Christ out to be less than deity.

that text is an outright lie about Christ. : (

Yes - Definitely an outright and God-cursed lie about Christ. It is also in direct opposition to what He said for Himself. It is also an outstanding example of proof that what JWs believe doesn't really come from the Bible, but is man-made-up. A created being couldn't possibly claim what Christ openly claims for Himself in John 14:9.
 

froggy

Active member
Yes - Definitely an outright and God-cursed lie about Christ. It is also in direct opposition to what He said for Himself. It is also an outstanding example of proof that what JWs believe doesn't really come from the Bible, but is man-made-up. A created being couldn't possibly claim what Christ openly claims for Himself in John 14:9.
The clearly reject the gospel.
 
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