No John 1: 1-18 proves only after the Word became flesh was there a Son. Since you admit he is Gods only begotten Son he could not have always been the Son. You do know what begotten means? Jesus has not been worshipped at heb 1:6 as it will not be until God presents his Son to the world after the Son died and went to heaven that he can be worshipped. The case is closed. You did not answer if everyone dies and goes to heaven or hell? Read 1st cor. 15: 51-54 and those still living will be transformed into bodies that will never die?
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Did Jesus create the angels?
- Thread starter jamesh
- Start date
Like you admit he is Gods only begotten Son correct? Meaning since he was Gods only begotten Son he was not always Gods only begotten Son. You do know what begotten means?Read ALL of John 1:1-18 as it does say He is GOD's ONLY Begotten SON, the one who " Was God " the Word in John 1:1 and BECAME " Flesh " as Jesus Christ in John 1:14 - the Only Begotten Son of God in verse 18! Case closed on your Twisted view ( 2 Peter 3:16 ) of all those posted AS IS scriptures! God the Father calls that only Begotten SON ( Jesus Christ ) of John 1:18 " O God " in Hebrews 1:8, just after all the Angels that He created ( as Per John 1:3/Col.1:16 ), WORSHIPED Him ( Jesus the Only Begotten Son of GOD ) in Hebrews 1:6! Case closed!
God the Word of John 1:1 ( Pre-Carnate Jesus Christ ) has Always been outside of TIME before He created it in John 1:3/Col.1:16, and then became incarnate ( Flesh - in that created Time ) as God the Son in John 1:14! Thus the Case is still closed on your Twisted view ( 2 Peter 3:16 ) that God the Word ( Pre-carnate Jesus Christ ) of John 1:1 did NOT Exist eternally before John 1:1 transpired BEFORE Time was Created! You remain 100% Rebuked by those AS IS posted scriptures as per 2 Tim.3:16!No John 1: 1-18 proves only after the Word became flesh was there a Son. Since you admit he is Gods only begotten Son he could not have always been the Son. You do know what begotten means? Jesus has not been worshipped at heb 1:6 as it will not be until God presents his Son to the world after the Son died and went to heaven that he can be worshipped. The case is closed. You did not answer if everyone dies and goes to heaven or hell? Read 1st cor. 15: 51-54 and those still living will be transformed into bodies that will never die?
Jesus is BOTH God ( the Word ) and a Man as Per John 1:1+14 or God-Man! As man He is the ONLY begotten Son of God! As God the Word, He is the Creator of us humans as per John 1:3/Col.1:16! That's why He ( Precarnate Jesus Christ ) was called EVERLASTING Father in Isaiah 9:6! He has TWO Natures ( Divine Nature as God the Word in John 1:1) and Human Nature as the Man He became in John 1:14! More Proof in scriptures that He is God-Man ( John 1:1+14 ) with two Natures ( Divine - God and Human - Man ) is in Philippians 2:6-8 -----------------------------Like you admit he is Gods only begotten Son correct? Meaning since he was Gods only begotten Son he was not always Gods only begotten Son. You do know what begotten means?
Philippians 2:6-8
New International Version
6 Who, being in very nature God,did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
You have not proven that Jesus is the Word and you remain refuted. You also keep from answering how you can have God and the Word as God in John 1? You have 2 Gods there instead of one. And I have proven many times that the Word (Jesus) creates nothing at John 1 and col. 1.Jesus is BOTH God ( the Word ) and a Man as Per John 1:1+14 or God-Man! As man He is the ONLY begotten Son of God! As God the Word, He is the Creator of us humans as per John 1:3/Col.1:16! That's why He ( Precarnate Jesus Christ ) was called EVERLASTING Father in Isaiah 9:6! He has TWO Natures ( Divine Nature as God the Word in John 1:1) and Human Nature as the Man He became in John 1:14! More Proof in scriptures that He is God-Man ( John 1:1+14 ) with two Natures ( Divine - God and Human - Man ) is in Philippians 2:6-8 -----------------------------
Philippians 2:6-8
New International Version
6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
You admit the point above when you say God the Word of John 1:1 (Precarnate Jesus Christ). It says it the Word and you are admitting there was no Jesus when you say the precarnate Jesus Christ because the Word had not become flesh yet.God the Word of John 1:1 ( Pre-Carnate Jesus Christ ) has Always been outside of TIME before He created it in John 1:3/Col.1:16, and then became incarnate ( Flesh - in that created Time ) as God the Son in John 1:14! Thus the Case is still closed on your Twisted view ( 2 Peter 3:16 ) that God the Word ( Pre-carnate Jesus Christ ) of John 1:1 did NOT Exist eternally before John 1:1 transpired BEFORE Time was Created! You remain 100% Rebuked by those AS IS posted scriptures as per 2 Tim.3:16!
Just your Twisted opinion ( 2 Peter 3:16 ) because John 1:1 says He " Was God " and John 1:14 says He became " Flesh " as the God-Man then called Jesus Christ! You remain 100% rebuked ( 2 Tim.3:16 ) by those AS IS posted scriptures and the Case is closed!You have not proven that Jesus is the Word and you remain refuted. You also keep from answering how you can have God and the Word as God in John 1? You have 2 Gods there instead of one. And I have proven many times that the Word (Jesus) creates nothing at John 1 and col. 1.
FYI, your missing the POINT that He was outside of Time! So yes indeed He existed as Jesus before the WORD became Flesh in His Created Time, as the scriptures talk about Him in a LOT in the OT thousands of years before John 1:14 transpired in His created Time! There was no Time before Creation Period! Case closed!You admit the point above when you say God the Word of John 1:1 (Precarnate Jesus Christ). It says it the Word and you are admitting there was no Jesus when you say the precarnate Jesus Christ because the Word had not become flesh yet.
The scriptures talk about him in prophecies in the OT. Show me where there was an actual Jesus in the OT and not the mention of a future Jesus? Until you can there has only been a Jesus for the last 2,000 or so years.FYI, your missing the POINT that He was outside of Time! So yes indeed He existed as Jesus before the WORD became Flesh in His Created Time, as the scriptures talk about Him in a LOT in the OT thousands of years before John 1:14 transpired in His created Time! There was no Time before Creation Period! Case closed!
You proved my point and you admit the Word became flesh. Or there is only documentation of a actual Jesus after the Word became flesh. You remain refuted until you provide the evidence needed.Just your Twisted opinion ( 2 Peter 3:16 ) because John 1:1 says He " Was God " and John 1:14 says He became " Flesh " as the God-Man then called Jesus Christ! You remain 100% rebuked ( 2 Tim.3:16 ) by those AS IS posted scriptures and the Case is closed!
FYI He ( the man Jesus Christ, who is also God the Word ) wrestled with Jacob and then named him Israel in the OT in Gen.32:22-30, Long before John 1:14 transpired! Case Closed!The scriptures talk about him in prophecies in the OT. Show me where there was an actual Jesus in the OT and not the mention of a future Jesus? Until you can there has only been a Jesus for the last 2,000 or so years.
FYI the Word ( God ) took on FLESH as a Man to wrestle with Jacob ( Israel ) in Gen. 32:22-30, LONG before John 1:14 Transpired ( where His Flesh was then PERMANENT )! He also did so when He met with Abraham before Jacob was born! Thus I poked holes in your Twisted ( 2 Peter 3:16 ) point!You proved my point and you admit the Word became flesh. Or there is only documentation of a actual Jesus after the Word became flesh. You remain refuted until you provide the evidence needed.
No because as you have been told many times the only documentation of Jesus is after the Word became flesh and you are trying to make the Word Jesus without any documentation. The case is closed until you you can provide concrete evidence there was a Jesus before the Word became flesh instead of there being a Jesus according to you before the Word became flesh. Until you can do that the case is closed.FYI the Word ( God ) took on FLESH as a Man to wrestle with Jacob ( Israel ) in Gen. 32:22-30, LONG before John 1:14 Transpired ( where His Flesh was then PERMANENT )! He also did so when He met with Abraham before Jacob was born! Thus I poked holes in your Twisted ( 2 Peter 3:16 ) point!
Show us where the Word is named Jesus or is documented he is the Son of God before the Word became flesh? I do not want to hear the Word is God and that is all you have.FYI the Word ( God ) took on FLESH as a Man to wrestle with Jacob ( Israel ) in Gen. 32:22-30, LONG before John 1:14 Transpired ( where His Flesh was then PERMANENT )! He also did so when He met with Abraham before Jacob was born! Thus I poked holes in your Twisted ( 2 Peter 3:16 ) point!
FYI, Jesus, the child to be born is in the OT ( Isaiah 9:6 ) before John 1:1+14 speaks of Him in the NT! ---------------------------No because as you have been told many times the only documentation of Jesus is after the Word became flesh and you are trying to make the Word Jesus without any documentation. The case is closed until you you can provide concrete evidence there was a Jesus before the Word became flesh instead of there being a Jesus according to you before the Word became flesh. Until you can do that the case is closed.
Isaiah 9:6
New King James Version
6 For unto us a Child is born ( Jesus Christ ),Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
---------------------------- Case Closed!
FYI Isaiah 9:6 in the OT tells us all about God the WORD of John 1:1 becoming that Child ( Son Of GOD - FLESH ) in John 1:14 -------------------------:Show us where the Word is named Jesus or is documented he is the Son of God before the Word became flesh? I do not want to hear the Word is God and that is all you have.
Isaiah 9:6
New King James Version
6 For unto us a Child is born ( Jesus the Flesh in John 1:14 ) ,Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
You just proved my point that the Word became that child (Jesus). Again only after the Word became flesh was there a documented Jesus.FYI Isaiah 9:6 in the OT tells us all about God the WORD of John 1:1 becoming that Child ( Son Of GOD - FLESH ) in John 1:14 -------------------------
Isaiah 9:6
New King James Version
6 For unto us a Child is born ( Jesus the Flesh in John 1:14 ) ,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Also what you quote in the OT is a child will be born and since he was not born until the NT that means what you quoted in the OT is a prophecy.
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Yes the WORD who " Was God " and EXISTED as God before that beginning in John 1:1 became Permanent Flesh as that child in John 1:14 that grew into an adult and Raised His dead Mortal adult temple/body back to life as He said He would do in John 2:19-21! So yes indeed I am still correct to say that God the Word " who was with God " the Father & Holy Spirit in John 1:1 EXISTED before John 1:1 transpired! Case closed on your twisted view ( 2 Peter 3:16 ) that the WORD who " was God and with God " in John 1:1 did not exist before John 1:1 transpired! All Three ( Father, Word/Son, & Holy Spirit of Matt.28:19 did Exist eternally before John 1:1, as each are called " God " in the scriptures and God has no beginning or end! Only Jesus' human Nature had a beginning in John 1:14! His very nature as God has no beginning! Proof of His 2 Natures is i Philippians 2:6-8! Case closed!You just proved my point that the Word became that child (Jesus). Again only after the Word became flesh was there a documented Jesus.
Also what you quote in the OT is a child will be born and since he was not born until the NT that means what you quoted in the OT is a prophecy.
You say only Jesus human nature had a beginning. Then you have to prove the nature (the Word) was identified as Jesus before his human nature and he was then identified as Jesus on earth. And only God is identified as being from everlasting to everlasting which means without beginning or end, and anyone else is identified as being everlasting, or at a certain point in time that one is never ending. Again the Word was in the beginning and only from then was the Word God.Yes the WORD who " Was God " and EXISTED as God before that beginning in John 1:1 became Permanent Flesh as that child in John 1:14 that grew into an adult and Raised His dead Mortal adult temple/body back to life as He said He would do in John 2:19-21! So yes indeed I am still correct to say that God the Word " who was with God " the Father & Holy Spirit in John 1:1 EXISTED before John 1:1 transpired! Case closed on your twisted view ( 2 Peter 3:16 ) that the WORD who " was God and with God " in John 1:1 did not exist before John 1:1 transpired! All Three ( Father, Word/Son, & Holy Spirit of Matt.28:19 did Exist eternally before John 1:1, as each are called " God " in the scriptures and God has no beginning or end! Only Jesus' human Nature had a beginning in John 1:14! His very nature as God has no beginning! Proof of His 2 Natures is i Philippians 2:6-8! Case closed!
No I do NOT have to prove that! You originally stated that the WORD had His beginning of Existence in John 1:1! FYI, God has no beginning and the WORD is identified as God in John 1:1! Thus He does in FACT EXIST eternally forever with no beginning! Case closed!You say only Jesus human nature had a beginning. Then you have to prove the nature (the Word) was identified as Jesus before his human nature and he was then identified as Jesus on earth. And only God is identified as being from everlasting to everlasting which means without beginning or end, and anyone else is identified as being everlasting, or at a certain point in time that one is never ending. Again the Word was in the beginning and only from then was the Word God.