Did Jesus create the angels?

imJRR

Well-known member
Christ is not created, but "begotten". However, Jesus was a naturally born human beings and like all human beings in flesh bodies, they are objective works of creation. Big difference, and Christ, Paul, etc. all point out that it is God who resides within these flesh bodies.

The takeaway here is in being able to distinguish between the contents and the container rather than conflating the two. It isn't just the JW's that are confused when it comes to this issue.

I believe there is a much bigger much greater need for people - especially JWs - to need to believe what Jesus said about Himself in places like John 14:9 (that seeing Him = seeing God Himself) than to bother with things such as distinguishing between contents and container. Those kind of things might be entertaining for some, but entertainment is not the purpose of this forum.
 
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shnarkle

Well-known member
I believe there is a much bigger much greater need for people - especially JWs - to need to believe what Jesus said about Himself in places like John 14:9 (that seeing Him = seeing God Himself) than to bother with things such as distinguishing between contents and container.

Well perhaps we might want to look at what Christ actually states:

"the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works."

Note the distinction between the contents and the container???
Those kind of things might be entertaining for some, but entertainment is not the purpose of this forum.
Christ points out that he is "The Way, the Truth, and the Life". He is not referring to the mortal frame in which God dwells, but to the contents of that mortal frame. The body does not give life to God, but God's spirit gives life to the mortal frame. This may be viewed as entertaining by some people, but it is a most pertinent factor to understand when looking at what Christ actually states about himself.

The distinction which Christ reveals is precisely what I'm talking about. Christ makes himself transparent in order for the elect to see the Father. One cannot see the Father unless they look through the Son. Instead, what all of mainstream Christianity does is to look AT Christ.

My favorite analogy is actually quite entertaining, but one must remember that there is nothing more sincere than humor.

 

imJRR

Well-known member
Well perhaps we might want to look at what Christ actually states:

"the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works."

Note the distinction between the contents and the container???

Christ points out that he is "The Way, the Truth, and the Life". He is not referring to the mortal frame in which God dwells, but to the contents of that mortal frame. The body does not give life to God, but God's spirit gives life to the mortal frame. This may be viewed as entertaining by some people, but it is a most pertinent factor to understand when looking at what Christ actually states about himself.

The distinction which Christ reveals is precisely what I'm talking about. Christ makes himself transparent in order for the elect to see the Father. One cannot see the Father unless they look through the Son. Instead, what all of mainstream Christianity does is to look AT Christ.

My favorite analogy is actually quite entertaining, but one must remember that there is nothing more sincere than humor.


What Christ stated is what I posted: Seeing Him = Seeing God Himself. You can talk all you wish about content verses container - It might be great fun, but it also looks to be a fulfillment of Titus 3:9, where we are told to avoid pointless (or foolish) controversies and arguments - they are worth nothing and profit no one. Jesus Christ is God come in the flesh, the Savior. That is the bedrock statement and truth of Christianity. As such, and going back to the original subject of this thread, Yes, He did indeed create the angels.
 
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imJRR

Well-known member
Yep, and we can make the same observation with regards to seeing you is to see yourself as well, but you are not the self that is objectively presented. The self, or persona objectively presented to the world is not equivalent to who one is. We are only identifying one with the other.

It would appear that you are not as eager to engage in any great fun, but would rather simply point out that it is great fun for some, but obviously not for you.

Yep, and God is not the flesh he dwells within. As Paul points out, "the flesh counts for nothing" John 6:63

The bedrock of Christianity is found in Christ's self sacrificial obedient love which is the cornerstone of his teaching. Therefore he lays down his life and discards the worthless flesh according to God's will. He discards the container because the contents cannot abide forever in the likeness of sinful flesh.

You are wrong. His sacrificial death doesn't mean anything if He's not Who He said He is.

If you are not a JW, you do not belong in/on this forum. This forum is for discussion/debate between Christians and JWs. Any other views are side-tracking and off-topic and belong somewhere else, such as the Theology Board.
 
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101G

Well-known member
GINOLJC, to all.
Addressing the OT, Yes, the Lord Jesus, the Ordinal First "CREATED" the angels. for all things was made by him, per Isaiah 44:24, and John 1:3.

now, Addressing the OP, JESUS the only TRUE and LIVING God is not CREATED, but is the "CREATOR". of all things. for he is the "ONLY ONE" with immortality, meaning he's the ONLY ONE with eternal LIFE. supportive scripture, 1 Timothy 6:14 "That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:"
1 Timothy 6:15 "Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;"
1 Timothy 6:16 "Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen."

if he's the "ONLY" one who have ETERNAL LIFE, then he was not "CREATED". and I believe that your NWT agrees with my statement at 1 Timothy 6:16.

All things are made through the word, but when the word becomes flesh, or enters into the created world, that's not what created anything. Jesus the man, didn't create anything because flesh can only "pro-create", and Jesus came in "the likeness of sinful flesh".

So it isn't a man who creates anything, but the word.
mostly correct, it's just the terms that you used, "Through" nothing was never made "Through" anyone, lets be clear here, "ALL THINGS WAS MADE .... BY ... HIM". not "Through" him, and here's why we say this, Isaiah 44:24 "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;"


when we examine this verse we see it was ONE PERSON only, the "I am the LORD", the Ordinal First, who was A. ALONE, and B. BY HIMSELF.
so clearly he did not go through anyone, because there was no one else to go through. how do we know this? the term ALONE, means, having no one else present. now, everyone need to stop and think for a second. read that definition of "ALONE" again,
"having no one else present". no one ..... ELSE? ..... that just closed the door on going through someone else. and by being "by himself", which simply means "ALONE".

BUT YOU"RE CORRECT ON, "no man created anything. the Ordinal Last, the Christ, the man, did not creat anything, but whatch this, JESUS DID....
meaning JESUS the Ordinal First, the LORD, the EVERLASTING Father, the only ONE who have immortality.

so in conclusion, A. the LORD, all caps, "JESUS", created the angels, "ALONE", and "BY HIMSELF".
B. "JESUS" the man did not create anything, but JESUS the Spirit, Made all things, "ALONE", and "BY HIMSELF".

we suggest one understand the "ECHAD" of God in Ordinal designations as Deuteronomy 6:4 states,, who is JESUS the Ordinal "FIRST", and the Ordinal "LAST". when one understand this then one will be clear as to who made the angels, and everything else.



PICJAG,
101G.
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
GINOLJC, to all.
Addressing the OT, Yes, the Lord Jesus, the Ordinal First "CREATED" the angels. for all things was made by him, per Isaiah 44:24, and John 1:3.

now, Addressing the OP, JESUS the only TRUE and LIVING God is not CREATED, but is the "CREATOR". of all things. for he is the "ONLY ONE" with immortality, meaning he's the ONLY ONE with eternal LIFE. supportive scripture, 1 Timothy 6:14 "That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:"
1 Timothy 6:15 "Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;"
1 Timothy 6:16 "Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen."

EDIT insult The passage states that Jesus will show He who is the only one with immortality and who no one has ever seen.


if he's the "ONLY" one who have ETERNAL LIFE, then he was not "CREATED". and I believe that your NWT agrees with my statement at 1 Timothy 6:16.


mostly correct, it's just the terms that you used, "Through" nothing was never made "Through" anyone, lets be clear here, "ALL THINGS WAS MADE .... BY ... HIM". not "Through" him, and here's why we say this, Isaiah 44:24 "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;"

That would be Jesus Christ's God who said that.

when we examine this verse we see it was ONE PERSON only, the "I am the LORD", the Ordinal First, who was A. ALONE, and B. BY HIMSELF.
so clearly he did not go through anyone, because there was no one else to go through. how do we know this? the term ALONE, means, having no one else present. now, everyone need to stop and think for a second. read that definition of "ALONE" again,
"having no one else present". no one ..... ELSE? ..... that just closed the door on going through someone else. and by being "by himself", which simply means "ALONE".

BUT YOU"RE CORRECT ON, "no man created anything. the Ordinal Last, the Christ, the man, did not creat anything, but whatch this, JESUS DID....
meaning JESUS the Ordinal First, the LORD, the EVERLASTING Father, the only ONE who have immortality.

so in conclusion, A. the LORD, all caps, "JESUS", created the angels, "ALONE", and "BY HIMSELF".
B. "JESUS" the man did not create anything, but JESUS the Spirit, Made all things, "ALONE", and "BY HIMSELF".

we suggest one understand the "ECHAD" of God in Ordinal designations as Deuteronomy 6:4 states,, who is JESUS the Ordinal "FIRST", and the Ordinal "LAST". when one understand this then one will be clear as to who made the angels, and everything else.



PICJAG,
101G.
 
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Nathan P

Member
Yes - Definitely an outright and God-cursed lie about Christ. It is also in direct opposition to what He said for Himself. It is also an outstanding example of proof that what JWs believe doesn't really come from the Bible, but is man-made-up. A created being couldn't possibly claim what Christ openly claims for Himself in John 14:9.
Are you trying t5o say at John 14:9 Jesus is saying they look identical?
What? The word wasn't created and only enlightened humans know the Word
You are evading the point and that is did the humans ever know the Word personally? Did they see the Word before the Word became flesh?
 

imJRR

Well-known member
Are you trying t5o say at John 14:9 Jesus is saying they look identical?

I'm not "trying" to say anything. Jesus Christ openly and directly stated in response to Philip that seeing Him = seeing God Himself in John 14:9.
 

froggy

Active member
Are you trying t5o say at John 14:9 Jesus is saying they look identical?

You are evading the point and that is did the humans ever know the Word personally? Did they see the Word before the Word became flesh?
The Word (Wisdom) wasn't created.
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
I'm not "trying" to say anything. Jesus Christ openly and directly stated in response to Philip that seeing Him = seeing God Himself in John 14:9.
RULE 24 Evangelism
Posters seeking to debate Evangelical Christians should take their discussions or questions to the appropriate forum, apologetics/etc.

If you want to debate Christians about Christianity, do so in the Apologetics or Christadelphian forums,. Not Here
 
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Nathan P

Member
I'm not "trying" to say anything. Jesus Christ openly and directly stated in response to Philip that seeing Him = seeing God Himself in John 14:9.
Read down through vs11 and you will see Jesus is talking about the work they do and that is why he says anyone who has seen me has seen the Father because after the Father showed him how to do things he can do it like the Father.
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
According to jw.org Jesus did create the angels.
When Was Jesus Created, and Why Is He Called God’s Son?

When was Jesus created?​

"God created Jesus before creating Adam. In fact, God created Jesus and then used him to make everything else, including the angels. That is why the Bible calls Jesus “the firstborn of all creation” by God.—Read Colossians 1:15, 16.

Before he was born in Bethlehem, Jesus lived as a spirit creature in heaven. When the time came, God transferred Jesus’ life from heaven to Mary’s womb so that he could be born as a human.—Read Luke 1:30-32; John 6:38; 8:23."

But the Bible says that God created the angels. Nehemiah 9:6, "Thou ALONE art the Lord, Thou hast made the heavens, The heaven of the heavens with all their host. The earth and all that is on it, The seas and all that is in them, Thou dost give life to all of them And the heavenly host bows down before Thee."

So how can Jesus have created the angels since God says He created them? Moreover, we read from the Jw's above , "Jesus lived as a spirit creature in heaven." And who was that spirit creature? It was none other than Jesus as Michael the arc angel who God created. Also notice that the spirit creature Jesus who is also Michael had his life transferred into Mary's womb so that he could be born a human. How do the Jw's reconcile these "glaring" contradictions of the Bible?


In Him,
herman

These verses might be relevant to the OP question:

When he had made purification of sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on High, having become as much superior to the angels, as he has inherited a more excellent name than them. Hebrews 1:3-4

For He did not subject to angels the world to come, concerning which we are speaking. But someone has testified somewhere, saying, “What is man, that You remember him? Or the son of man, that You are concerned about him? You made him a little lower than the angels. You have crowned him with glory and honor and have appointed him over the works of Your hands. You have put all things in subjection under his feet.” Hebrews 2:5-8

8 O Lord, our Lord,
How majestic is Your name in all the earth,
Who have displayed Your splendor above the heavens!
2 From the mouth of infants and nursing babes You have established strength
Because of Your adversaries,
To make the enemy and the revengeful cease.
3 When I consider Your heavens, the work of Your fingers,
The moon and the stars, which You have ordained;
4 What is man that You take thought of him,
And the son of man that You care for him?
5 You have made him a little lower than elohim,
And You crown him with glory and majesty!
6 You make him to rule over the works of Your hands;
You have put all things under his feet,

7 All sheep and oxen,
And also the beasts of the field,
8 The birds of the heavens and the fish of the sea,
Whatever passes through the paths of the seas.
9 O Lord, our Lord,
How majestic is Your name in all the earth!
Psalm 8
 

imJRR

Well-known member
Read down through vs11 and you will see Jesus is talking about the work they do and that is why he says anyone who has seen me has seen the Father because after the Father showed him how to do things he can do it like the Father.

I've read them. They don't negate in any way at all whatsoever the open, clear, direct, and irrefutable declaration Jesus Christ makes for Himself personally to Philip: Seeing Jesus Christ = seeing God Himself.
 

Nathan P

Member
I think they are talking about us and that there was no scripture discussion? We all know where it says the Word became flesh and I did not think the scripture needed to be listed. But it was scripture related when we talked about when the Word became flesh.
 
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shnarkle

Well-known member
You are wrong. His sacrificial death doesn't mean anything if He's not Who He said He is.

If you are not a JW, you do not belong in/on this forum.
Sorry, my bad. I have been trying to understand the rules of this group for quite a while. I'm taking notes. Please be patient. I'm doing the best I can.
 
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