Did Jesus create the angels?

Nathan P

Member
And just when you KNOW it can't get any more ridiculous - it does.
It is funny you all want to say Jesus existed more than 2,000 or so plus years ago, and yet you can not provide any reliable documentation that he existed before 2,000 or so years ago. I am waiting for the documentation that he did. Oh and do not provide scriptures that hint at what you believe?
 

Bob Carabbio

Well-known member
It is funny you all want to say Jesus existed more than 2,000 or so plus years ago, and yet you can not provide any reliable documentation that he existed before 2,000 or so years ago. I am waiting for the documentation that he did. Oh and do not provide scriptures that hint at what you believe?
Jesus didn't "Exist" until He was Conceived in Mary 2000 years ago. Jesus apparently CONTINUES to exist in glorified Human FOrm at present (Whatever that means practically). However the WORD that was incarnated as Jesus is eternal. The first chapter of John provides all the Details we possess. and Luke 1:26-35 gives some additional info on the nativity.

What you think "We all" say doesn't interest me.
 

imJRR

Active member
But documentation wise Jesus only goes back 2,000 or so years. The Word became flesh and then there was Jesus. No one can prove the Word was Jesus.

LOL! You think the Gospel of John, chapter 1 doesn't clearly and directly and even irrefutably refer/point to the real, actual, literal Person of Jesus Christ with the term "the Word"?? That is one of the most Bible-denying ideas I've ever read...which is saying a LOT.

Are you a JW? One of the moderators has posted the following:
RULE 24 Evangelism: Posters seeking to debate Evangelical Christians should take their discussions or questions to the appropriate forum, apologetics/etc.
 
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101G

Well-known member
"God created Jesus before creating Adam. In fact, God created Jesus and then used him to make everything else, including the angels. That is why the Bible calls Jesus “the firstborn of all creation” by God.—Read Colossians 1:15, 16.
GINOLJC, to all.
not having read all the posts, but only addressing the OP, ERROR, Jesus is God almighty himself, title, the "LORD", the Spirit, the ordinal First.

you said, "God created Jesus and then used him to make everything else, including the angels". well, lets see if this is true. Isaiah 44:24 "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;"

now, either according to you, "Jesus is the LORD", or your statement is false.

so either way you asnwer, you destroy the rest of your OP.

PICJAG, 101g.
 

jamesh

Active member
Not only have you not read all the post in this thread, you did not even read the opening post correctly. Here is what I said.

According to jw.org Jesus did create the angels.
When Was Jesus Created, and Why Is He Called God’s Son?

When was Jesus created?​

"God created Jesus before creating Adam. In fact, God created Jesus and then used him to make everything else, including the angels. That is why the Bible calls Jesus “the firstborn of all creation” by God.—Read Colossians 1:15, 16.

I'm quoting what the JW's teach, not what I teach or believe. Jesus Christ is God Almighty in the flesh and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being, that would include the angels. John 1:3.

IN GOD THE SON,
james
 

Nathan P

Member
LOL! You think the Gospel of John, chapter 1 doesn't clearly and directly and even irrefutably refer/point to the real, actual, literal Person of Jesus Christ with the term "the Word"?? That is one of the most Bible-denying ideas I've ever read...which is saying a LOT.

Are you a JW? One of the moderators has posted the following:
RULE 24 Evangelism: Posters seeking to debate Evangelical Christians should take their discussions or questions to the appropriate forum, apologetics/etc.
Clearly identify Jesus by name before the Word became flesh? The Word became flesh and there was a change and then there was Jesus? I am an inactive JW and the mods know it. You are the one the mods would be interested in to decide if you belong here.
 

Nathan P

Member
Jesus didn't "Exist" until He was Conceived in Mary 2000 years ago. Jesus apparently CONTINUES to exist in glorified Human FOrm at present (Whatever that means practically). However the WORD that was incarnated as Jesus is eternal. The first chapter of John provides all the Details we possess. and Luke 1:26-35 gives some additional info on the nativity.

What you think "We all" say doesn't interest me.
Those scriptures say nothing about Jesus being alive at the time being talked about. You have to clearly document your point. It clearly says at Luke 1: 26-35 it is about Jesus birth foretold and not Jesus himself at the time. You will never be able to find the proof you seek.
 
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imJRR

Active member
And the mods know me, and my posts are in regards to JW belief and teaching. As for your idea of, "The word became flesh and then there was a change and then there was Jesus?" -- If you got that from my post, I submit that there's a LOT of imagination involved. Jesus Christ IS the Word made flesh.
Again - You think the Gospel of John, chapter 1 doesn't clearly and directly and even irrefutably refer/point to the real, actual, literal Person of Jesus Christ with the term "the Word"?? That is one of the most Bible-denying ideas I've ever read...which is saying a LOT.
 
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Nathan P

Member
And the mods know me, and my posts are in regards to JW belief and teaching. As for your idea of, "The word became flesh and then there was a change and then there was Jesus?" -- If you got that from my post, I submit that there's a LOT of imagination involved.
Imagination involved? When the Word became flesh that means the Word was not flesh and there then was a change to human flesh.
 

organgrinder

Well-known member
John says that "the word was god", but he never claims that God was the word, does he? It's a one way street.
False. See the Granville-Sharp rule regarding grammatical construction. Here is the link: https://www.gotquestions.org/Granville-Sharp-Rule.html

Here is a bit of what is says:
The Granville Sharp Rule states, “When the copulative kai connects two nouns of the same case, [viz. nouns (either substantive or adjective, or participles) of personal description, respecting office, dignity, affinity, or connexion, and attributes, properties, or qualities, good or ill], if the article ho, or any of its cases, precedes the first of the said nouns or participles, and is not repeated before the second noun or participle, the latter always relates to the same person that is expressed or described by the first noun or participle” (Remarks on the Uses of the Definitive Article, 3).

In simpler terms, the Granville Sharp Rule says that when two singular common nouns are used to describe a person, and those two nouns are joined by an additive conjunction, and the definite article precedes the first noun but not the second, then both nouns refer to the same person. This principle of semantics holds true in all languages. For example, consider this sentence:

We met with the owner and the curator of the museum, Mr. Holton.

In the preceding sentence, the definite article the is used twice, before both owner and curator. The curator is obviously Mr. Holton, but the owner could be a different person. Did we meet with one or two people? Is Mr. Holton the owner of the museum as well as the curator? The grammatical construction leaves the question open. However, the following sentence removes the ambiguity:

We met with the owner and curator of the museum, Mr. Holton.

In the second example, the definite article the is only used once, before the first noun. This means that the two nouns, joined by and, are both in apposition to the name of the person. In other words, Mr. Holton is both owner and curator. The Granville Sharp Rule makes it clear that we are referring to the same individual.

Two of the New Testament verses associated with the Granville Sharp Rule are Titus 2:13 and 2 Peter 1:1. The KJV translates Titus 2:13 as, “Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.” In the original Greek, the words for “God” and “Savior” are joined by kai, and the definite article ho is only used once, preceding “God”; according to the Granville Sharp Rule, both God and Savior must refer to the same person, namely, Jesus Christ. The NASB 1977 renders the verse more literally: “Looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus.”

Similarly, 2 Peter 1:1 refers to “our God and Savior Jesus Christ.” Following Granville Sharp’s rule, Jesus Christ is clearly identified as both “God” and “Savior,” another example of the Bible’s teaching of the deity of Christ. The grammatical construction of the Greek makes it plain: definite article + singular noun + copulative conjunction + singular noun = the same person.

Though the Granville Sharp Rule may seem arcane, the concept has an important impact regarding Bible translation and our understanding of the nature of Christ. The New Testament passages where this rule applies highlight the deity of Jesus Christ. He is more than the Messiah; He is God.

JEs have twisted the meaning of scripture to fit their false theology.
 

imJRR

Active member
The above is quite right. And Jesus Himself openly and irrefutably declared that seeing Him = Seeing God Himself in John 14:9.
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
False. See the Granville-Sharp rule regarding grammatical construction. Here is the link: https://www.gotquestions.org/Granville-Sharp-Rule.html

Here is a bit of what is says:
The Granville Sharp Rule states, “When the copulative kai connects two nouns of the same case, [viz. nouns (either substantive or adjective, or participles) of personal description, respecting office, dignity, affinity, or connexion, and attributes, properties, or qualities, good or ill], if the article ho, or any of its cases, precedes the first of the said nouns or participles, and is not repeated before the second noun or participle, the latter always relates to the same person that is expressed or described by the first noun or participle” (Remarks on the Uses of the Definitive Article, 3).
Therefore John 20:28 proves that Thomas is distinguishing between Christ and God. Paul does the same thing in 1 Corinthians 8:6
 

organgrinder

Well-known member
Therefore John 20:28 proves that Thomas is distinguishing between Christ and God. Paul does the same thing in 1 Corinthians 8:6
False. You didn't read the article. Did you look at the Greek in the 1 Corinthians 8:6? No definite article "ho" there. In John the definite article preceeds both Lord and God. It is very specific. Thomas recognizes Jesus as Lord and God in the flesh. Paul recognizes there is one God the Father (no punctuation or commas in Greek) and one Lord Jesus Christ. He is not distinguishing between Almighty God and a lesser being but simply persons of the Godhead which are equal and co-eternal.

Colossians 2:9 speaks of the Godhead. There are two other New Testament references. Look them up.
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
False. You didn't read the article.
Yes, I did. I also pointed out how John 20:28 is right in line with what you posted. I even quoted it again.
Did you look at the Greek in the 1 Corinthians 8:6?
Yes, but the English is more than adequate to support the fact that God is being distinguished from Christ. Just as the father is being distinguished from the son, and the origin from the means of creation.
No definite article "ho" there. In John the definite article preceeds both Lord and God. It is very specific.
Yes, and according to what you yourself posted with regards to Granville Sharp it clearly means he isn't conflating the two.
Thomas recognizes Jesus as Lord and God in the flesh.
Sure, but that doesn't negate the fact that he isn't conflating the container with the contents. You need to point out why there should be some exception to the rule in John 20:28
Paul recognizes there is one God the Father (no punctuation or commas in Greek) and one Lord Jesus Christ.
Yep.
He is not distinguishing between Almighty God and a lesser being but simply persons of the Godhead which are equal and co-eternal.
prove it. Your claim doesn't prove it.
Colossians 2:9 speaks of the Godhead.
Yep, and again, the contents are not being conflated with the container.
 

organgrinder

Well-known member
Yes, I did. I also pointed out how John 20:28 is right in line with what you posted. I even quoted it again.

Yes, but the English is more than adequate to support the fact that God is being distinguished from Christ. Just as the father is being distinguished from the son, and the origin from the means of creation.

Yes, and according to what you yourself posted with regards to Granville Sharp it clearly means he isn't conflating the two.

Sure, but that doesn't negate the fact that he isn't conflating the container with the contents. You need to point out why there should be some exception to the rule in John 20:28

Yep.

prove it. Your claim doesn't prove it.

Yep, and again, the contents are not being conflated with the container.
You obviously do not understand. Sorry you are so deceived.
 
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