Did Jesus create the angels?

Nathan P

Member
Nope. Jesus Himself said that He was with the Father before creation. John 17:5
He knew as the Word he had glory with the Father then. You are still failing to clearly document where there was a Son of God before the Word became flesh and can only find scriptures that you want them to infer them to what you want them to say?
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
He knew as the Word he had glory with the Father then. You are still failing to clearly document where there was a Son of God before the Word became flesh and can only find scriptures that you want them to infer them to what you want them to say?
I can see how this argument works with regards to Jesus because Jesus wasn't even named until eight days after he was born. However, God is unchanging so I don't see how he could become a father. The word is eternal, therefore he has always proceeded from the father. If not, then God spent eternity alone until he said his first word.
 

Nathan P

Member
I can see how this argument works with regards to Jesus because Jesus wasn't even named until eight days after he was born. However, God is unchanging so I don't see how he could become a father. The word is eternal, therefore he has always proceeded from the father. If not, then God spent eternity alone until he said his first word.
The point you all still miss is if there was Son of God before the Word became flesh God would have surely documented it, like he did after the Word became flesh.
 

imJRR

Well-known member
He knew as the Word he had glory with the Father then. You are still failing to clearly document where there was a Son of God before the Word became flesh and can only find scriptures that you want them to infer them to what you want them to say?

I didn't infer anything - Jesus said what He said. The Word = the Person of Jesus Christ.
 

imJRR

Well-known member
Continuing from the above: In John 17:5 (and 24), Jesus is speaking as both the Word and the Son, and that's because He is both and always has been. There's never been a time when the Father wasn't the Father; there's never been a time when the Son wasn't the Son. This is simply following the verse.
Hebrews 1:3 speaks of Jesus Christ - the Son - being the exact and/or perfect representation of the being and nature of God. Everything the Father is the Son is. One of those "everythings" is that the Father is eternal. Therefore so is the Son. You can't have an eternal Father without having an eternal Son. Again, that's simply following the verse.
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
The point you all still miss is if there was Son of God before the Word became flesh God would have surely documented it, like he did after the Word became flesh.
It is documented. Christ says he is the Alpha and the Omega. He never says he began and ended. John says that: "in the beginning was the word". He didn't say, 'In the beginning was god". To say 'in the beginning was the word" is not the same as saying "the word began".

Logically, existence is necessarily eternal. To claim otherwise is to contradict oneself, e.g. existence doesn't exist. There can be no beginning or end to existence, only things can begin and end.
 

Nathan P

Member
It is documented. Christ says he is the Alpha and the Omega. He never says he began and ended. John says that: "in the beginning was the word". He didn't say, 'In the beginning was god". To say 'in the beginning was the word" is not the same as saying "the word began".

Logically, existence is necessarily eternal. To claim otherwise is to contradict oneself, e.g. existence doesn't exist. There can be no beginning or end to existence, only things can begin and end.
The Alpha and the Omega is not the same as the Son of God. You know there is nothing to document that there was a Son of God before the Word became flesh and you have to keep making scriptures say what they do not say.
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
The Alpha and the Omega is not the same as the Son of God.
What essential or effective difference is there? Words emanate from God just like sons come from fathers.
You know there is nothing to document that there was a Son of God before the Word became flesh and you have to keep making scriptures say what they do not say.
The metaphors used by Christ himself refute your baseless claims.
 

Nathan P

Member
It is documented. Christ says he is the Alpha and the Omega. He never says he began and ended. John says that: "in the beginning was the word". He didn't say, 'In the beginning was god". To say 'in the beginning was the word" is not the same as saying "the word began".

Logically, existence is necessarily eternal. To claim otherwise is to contradict oneself, e.g. existence doesn't exist. There can be no beginning or end to existence, only things can begin and end.
Who told John to write "in the beginning was the Word"?
 

Nathan P

Member
I can see how this argument works with regards to Jesus because Jesus wasn't even named until eight days after he was born. However, God is unchanging so I don't see how he could become a father. The word is eternal, therefore he has always proceeded from the father. If not, then God spent eternity alone until he said his first word.
We do not know what God did before 'in the beginning'. He could have other worlds so far out there that there is zero chance of any contact between civilizations.
 

Nathan P

Member
And what is the point of this supposed point?

There is no "before" before the beginning, nor is there an "after" after the end.
Yes there was time before the beginning because there are 3 heavens and only the heaven with the earth , stars etc., is in the first heaven and what is in the other 2 heavens we do not know, except that God resides in one of the .other 2.
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
Yes there was time before the beginning because there are 3 heavens and only the heaven with the earth , stars etc., is in the first heaven and what is in the other 2 heavens we do not know, except that God resides in one of the .other 2.
Fallacy of Begging the Question. You're assuming that "in the beginning" isn't referring to the beginning at all. There's no reason to assume that. There is no such thing as time before the beginning of time, nor time after the end of time. Nothing exists outside of space either. These are blatant contradictions. Your arguments are incoherent and contradictory.
 

Nathan P

Member
Fallacy of Begging the Question. You're assuming that "in the beginning" isn't referring to the beginning at all. There's no reason to assume that. There is no such thing as time before the beginning of time, nor time after the end of time. Nothing exists outside of space either. These are blatant contradictions. Your arguments are incoherent and contradictory.
In the beginning means in the beginning and not before or after the time frame of in the beginning.
 

Nathan P

Member
And what is the point of this supposed point?

There is no "before" before the beginning, nor is there an "after" after the end.
The point is an angel told John information of what to write and only Jesus knew that information rev. 5: 1-10 or 11 and since only Jesus knew that information then the angel who told John that information had to have been Jesus.
 
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