Did Jesus create the angels?

Nathan P

Active member
And then John reveals it to anyone else who decides to read John's Revelation so just because you come up with this claim, it doesn't then follow because EVERYONE now knows, and yet this is a prophecy of what is to come, correct???

According to you logic, we're all worthy because we all already know what's in the scroll even though none of this has actually come to pass yet. Seems a bit anticlimactic, don't you think? What's going to happen when this actually happens? We're all going to know what's going to happen so it's a spoiler alert?

Except for the fact that we all know now the contents of the scroll before the fact. So it kinda throws your thoery right out the window.
We are not talking about now. Prove at the time the angel told John that information who was worthy other than Jesus?
 

Leatherneck0311

Well-known member
According to jw.org Jesus did create the angels.
When Was Jesus Created, and Why Is He Called God’s Son?

When was Jesus created?​

"God created Jesus before creating Adam. In fact, God created Jesus and then used him to make everything else, including the angels. That is why the Bible calls Jesus “the firstborn of all creation” by God.—Read Colossians 1:15, 16.

Before he was born in Bethlehem, Jesus lived as a spirit creature in heaven. When the time came, God transferred Jesus’ life from heaven to Mary’s womb so that he could be born as a human.—Read Luke 1:30-32; John 6:38; 8:23."

But the Bible says that God created the angels. Nehemiah 9:6, "Thou ALONE art the Lord, Thou hast made the heavens, The heaven of the heavens with all their host. The earth and all that is on it, The seas and all that is in them, Thou dost give life to all of them And the heavenly host bows down before Thee."

So how can Jesus have created the angels since God says He created them? Moreover, we read from the Jw's above , "Jesus lived as a spirit creature in heaven." And who was that spirit creature? It was none other than Jesus as Michael the arc angel who God created. Also notice that the spirit creature Jesus who is also Michael had his life transferred into Mary's womb so that he could be born a human. How do the Jw's reconcile these "glaring" contradictions of the Bible?


In Him,
herman
You might want to read John 1:1 and John 1:14 . Then reread Where scripture says Jesus was the lamb slain before the foundation of the earth.🌏 1 Peter 1:19,20 …. but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifested (revealed) in these last times for you. Romans 6:10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all.
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
We are not talking about now. Prove at the time the angel told John that information who was worthy other than Jesus?
You're asking me who was worthy to tell John? That's not what the text says. The text indicates no one is worthy to open the scroll, and that scroll was not opened. That hasn't happened yet. John's revelation is of events that are yet to occur.

You're conflating the worthiness to open the scroll with the worthiness to reveal this to John. Anyone could reveal this to John, and even John is worthy to reveal it to us, and we're all worthy to convey this same message to anyone else.
 

Nathan P

Active member
You're asking me who was worthy to tell John? That's not what the text says. The text indicates no one is worthy to open the scroll, and that scroll was not opened. That hasn't happened yet. John's revelation is of events that are yet to occur.

You're conflating the worthiness to open the scroll with the worthiness to reveal this to John. Anyone could reveal this to John, and even John is worthy to reveal it to us, and we're all worthy to convey this same message to anyone else.
Whether or not it has been opened who will or has been the only documented one who will be or was worthy to tell John the information?
 

jamesh

Active member
You might want to read John 1:1 and John 1:14 . Then reread Where scripture says Jesus was the lamb slain before the foundation of the earth.🌏 1 Peter 1:19,20 …. but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifested (revealed) in these last times for you. Romans 6:10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all.
Please read the following of what I wrote to someone else. I'm quoting what the JW's believe.

Excuse me justhefacts, I want to make "CLEAR" that Jesus Christ is "NOT" an actual angel nor is He Michael the archangel. You miss understood my position. The following is what I said:

When was Jesus created?​

"God created Jesus before creating Adam. In fact, God created Jesus and then used him to make everything else, including the angels. That is why the Bible calls Jesus “the firstborn of all creation” by God.—Read Colossians 1:15, 16.

I'm quoting what the JW's teach, not what I teach or believe. Jesus Christ is God Almighty in the flesh and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being, that would include the angels. John 1:3.

It's rather obvious to me that you do not understand that the Jewish word for angel in the Old Testament is "malak." This word simply means "messenger." Since you quoted Malachi 3:1 I will be glad to explain it to you.

"Behold, I am going to send My "malak/angel/messenger," and he will clear the way before Me. (Who's the Me?). And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple; (Who's the Lord that will come to His temple?) and the "malak/angel/messenger" of the covenant, (Who's the messenger of the covenant and where is this covenant found in the OT?) in whom you delight, (Who do you think we are going to be delighted to see?) behold, He is coming," (Who is the one coming?) says the Lord of hosts." (Who do you think is the Lord of hosts?)

Mark 1:1-4 identifies the "malak/angel/messenger" that clears the way of the Lord is none other than John the Baptist. And John is not an angel, he's a messenger who prepares the way of Jesus Christ, you know, the one who is coming to "HIS" temple and the one in whom we will be delighted to see.

The "malak/angel/messenger" of the covenant is God/the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ. Isaiah 40:3, "A voice is calling, Clear the way for the Lord in the wilderness; Make smooth in the desert a highway FOR OUR GOD." Judges 2:1, "Now the angel of the Lord came up from Gilgal to Bochim. And he said, "I brought you up out of Egypt and led you into the land which I HAVE SWORN TO YOUR FATHERS; AND SAID I WILL NEVER BREAK MY COVENANT."

So where did the angel of the Lord swear to Abraham the covenant? Genesis 22:15-18, "The the angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time from heaven, vs16, and said, "By Myself I have sworn, DECLARES THE LORD, because (or why) you have done this thing, and not withheld your son, your only son, (was Isaac Abraham's only son?) vs17, indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens, and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies."

So, it was the angel/messenger of the Lord who swore the oath or confirmed the covenant to Abraham. It is impossible that the angel of the Lord/the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ is an actual angel or even Michael the arc angel. The reason is because angels CANNOT swear oaths on behalf of God Himself. Hebrews 6:13-14 confirms this. "For when God make the promise to Abraham, since He could swear by no one greater, HE SWORE BY HIMSELF, vs14, saying, I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply you." I highly suggest you rethink you position and study your Bible.

IN GOD THE SON,
james
 

Leatherneck0311

Well-known member
Please read the following of what I wrote to someone else. I'm quoting what the JW's believe.

Excuse me justhefacts, I want to make "CLEAR" that Jesus Christ is "NOT" an actual angel nor is He Michael the archangel. You miss understood my position. The following is what I said:

When was Jesus created?​

"God created Jesus before creating Adam. In fact, God created Jesus and then used him to make everything else, including the angels. That is why the Bible calls Jesus “the firstborn of all creation” by God.—Read Colossians 1:15, 16.

I'm quoting what the JW's teach, not what I teach or believe. Jesus Christ is God Almighty in the flesh and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being, that would include the angels. John 1:3.

It's rather obvious to me that you do not understand that the Jewish word for angel in the Old Testament is "malak." This word simply means "messenger." Since you quoted Malachi 3:1 I will be glad to explain it to you.

"Behold, I am going to send My "malak/angel/messenger," and he will clear the way before Me. (Who's the Me?). And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple; (Who's the Lord that will come to His temple?) and the "malak/angel/messenger" of the covenant, (Who's the messenger of the covenant and where is this covenant found in the OT?) in whom you delight, (Who do you think we are going to be delighted to see?) behold, He is coming," (Who is the one coming?) says the Lord of hosts." (Who do you think is the Lord of hosts?)

Mark 1:1-4 identifies the "malak/angel/messenger" that clears the way of the Lord is none other than John the Baptist. And John is not an angel, he's a messenger who prepares the way of Jesus Christ, you know, the one who is coming to "HIS" temple and the one in whom we will be delighted to see.

The "malak/angel/messenger" of the covenant is God/the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ. Isaiah 40:3, "A voice is calling, Clear the way for the Lord in the wilderness; Make smooth in the desert a highway FOR OUR GOD." Judges 2:1, "Now the angel of the Lord came up from Gilgal to Bochim. And he said, "I brought you up out of Egypt and led you into the land which I HAVE SWORN TO YOUR FATHERS; AND SAID I WILL NEVER BREAK MY COVENANT."

So where did the angel of the Lord swear to Abraham the covenant? Genesis 22:15-18, "The the angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time from heaven, vs16, and said, "By Myself I have sworn, DECLARES THE LORD, because (or why) you have done this thing, and not withheld your son, your only son, (was Isaac Abraham's only son?) vs17, indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens, and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies."

So, it was the angel/messenger of the Lord who swore the oath or confirmed the covenant to Abraham. It is impossible that the angel of the Lord/the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ is an actual angel or even Michael the arc angel. The reason is because angels CANNOT swear oaths on behalf of God Himself. Hebrews 6:13-14 confirms this. "For when God make the promise to Abraham, since He could swear by no one greater, HE SWORE BY HIMSELF, vs14, saying, I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply you." I highly suggest you rethink you position and study your Bible.

IN GOD THE SON,
james
Sorry !
 

Nathan P

Active member
Please read the following of what I wrote to someone else. I'm quoting what the JW's believe.

Excuse me justhefacts, I want to make "CLEAR" that Jesus Christ is "NOT" an actual angel nor is He Michael the archangel. You miss understood my position. The following is what I said:

When was Jesus created?​

"God created Jesus before creating Adam. In fact, God created Jesus and then used him to make everything else, including the angels. That is why the Bible calls Jesus “the firstborn of all creation” by God.—Read Colossians 1:15, 16.

I'm quoting what the JW's teach, not what I teach or believe. Jesus Christ is God Almighty in the flesh and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being, that would include the angels. John 1:3.

It's rather obvious to me that you do not understand that the Jewish word for angel in the Old Testament is "malak." This word simply means "messenger." Since you quoted Malachi 3:1 I will be glad to explain it to you.

"Behold, I am going to send My "malak/angel/messenger," and he will clear the way before Me. (Who's the Me?). And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple; (Who's the Lord that will come to His temple?) and the "malak/angel/messenger" of the covenant, (Who's the messenger of the covenant and where is this covenant found in the OT?) in whom you delight, (Who do you think we are going to be delighted to see?) behold, He is coming," (Who is the one coming?) says the Lord of hosts." (Who do you think is the Lord of hosts?)

Mark 1:1-4 identifies the "malak/angel/messenger" that clears the way of the Lord is none other than John the Baptist. And John is not an angel, he's a messenger who prepares the way of Jesus Christ, you know, the one who is coming to "HIS" temple and the one in whom we will be delighted to see.

The "malak/angel/messenger" of the covenant is God/the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ. Isaiah 40:3, "A voice is calling, Clear the way for the Lord in the wilderness; Make smooth in the desert a highway FOR OUR GOD." Judges 2:1, "Now the angel of the Lord came up from Gilgal to Bochim. And he said, "I brought you up out of Egypt and led you into the land which I HAVE SWORN TO YOUR FATHERS; AND SAID I WILL NEVER BREAK MY COVENANT."

So where did the angel of the Lord swear to Abraham the covenant? Genesis 22:15-18, "The the angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time from heaven, vs16, and said, "By Myself I have sworn, DECLARES THE LORD, because (or why) you have done this thing, and not withheld your son, your only son, (was Isaac Abraham's only son?) vs17, indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens, and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies."

So, it was the angel/messenger of the Lord who swore the oath or confirmed the covenant to Abraham. It is impossible that the angel of the Lord/the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ is an actual angel or even Michael the arc angel. The reason is because angels CANNOT swear oaths on behalf of God Himself. Hebrews 6:13-14 confirms this. "For when God make the promise to Abraham, since He could swear by no one greater, HE SWORE BY HIMSELF, vs14, saying, I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply you." I highly suggest you rethink you position and study your Bible.

IN GOD THE SON,
james
But what is your point?
 

Nathan P

Active member
That appears on all of my posts to everyone.

What I'm pointing out is that John is worthy to get this revelation, and everyone who reads John's account is worthy as well so, again, your theory seems a bit odd given that everyone who reads his account is worthy. The point that John is making is that only Christ is worthy to open the scroll. You're engaging in the fallacy of the Non Sequitur. You think that just because Jesus is worthy, it must then follow that Jesus is an angel which clearly doesn't follow at all, except insofar as he conveys this message to someone else.

I haven't read through all the posts on this thread so I'm just speculating here, but my guess is that you're attempting to come up with some sort of justification for the idea that Jesus is a created being/angel.

My position is that "the word" that comes from the father is the son, and this is an eternal relationship. God is does not change, therefore he is eternally the father. He always was the father and always will be. Therefore the son is not a being that comes into being, but always exists eternally. He is eternally begotten of the father.

This is not to say that the son was always Jesus. Jesus wasn't even given his name until he was eight days old. John clearly points out that the word "became flesh", and was given the name "jesus". It doesn't then follow that Jesus always existed. He clearly was born into this world, and died as well.

When a caterpillar becomes a butterfly, it is no longer a caterpillar. When zygote becomes a fetus, and then proceeds to become a child, adolescent, adult, etc., it is no longer a zygote. People tend to confuse the fact that when the word became flesh, it necessarily means that the word was not flesh prior to becoming flesh.

Jesus does not have an eternal existence, but the son does. Jesus begins his ministry by pointing out that one must deny themselves, and it is safe to assume he followed his own advice. Therefore the self denied, reveals the eternal son of God. The self denied loses its life for the sake of Christ. The biological life is discarded in favor of eternal life which is Christ.
You are reading too quick and i am not talking about who is worthy to read what John wrote. Now slowly who was the only one worthy to take the scroll open it and know what is in it and then tell John what to write?
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
You are reading too quick and i am not talking about who is worthy to read what John wrote.
I'm well aware of that. You're asking who is worthy to reveal what is in the scroll to John, and I pointed out that the text makes no claims to anyone being worthy to reveal anything to John. The only thing the text mentions is who is worthy to open the scroll which by the time it actually happens will be pretty anticlimactic to everyone familiar with John's revelation.

What effective difference does it make when everyone already knows what is in the scroll? We're all worthy, if we all already know what's in the scroll.
 

Nathan P

Active member
I'm well aware of that. You're asking who is worthy to reveal what is in the scroll to John, and I pointed out that the text makes no claims to anyone being worthy to reveal anything to John. The only thing the text mentions is who is worthy to open the scroll which by the time it actually happens will be pretty anticlimactic to everyone familiar with John's revelation.

What effective difference does it make when everyone already knows what is in the scroll? We're all worthy, if we all already know what's in the scroll.
What you are not getting is since only Jesus can open the scroll and know what is in it only he can tell anyone about it. Meaning since the angel told John about the scroll the angel had to have been Jesus. Not everyone was worthy at the time because it had to be told to someone so it could then be known by others.
 

jamesh

Active member
But what is your point?
I ask you the following question yesterday and you said you will get to it today. Here it is here:

So if it is not Michael the arc angel then who was the angel that called out to Abraham from heaven at Genesis 22:15 two times? Also at Genesis 22:11? Could it be Jesus?

IN HIM,
james
I will try to get to that tomorrow.

IN HIM,
james
 

Nathan P

Active member
I ask you the following question yesterday and you said you will get to it today. Here it is here:


I will try to get to that tomorrow.

IN HIM,
james
So far there is not enough information there to determine if the angel could have been Jesus.
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
What you are not getting is since only Jesus can open the scroll and know what is in it only he can tell anyone about it.
That was perfectly clear from the text. So you still aren't advancing much of an argument to begin with.
Meaning since the angel told John about the scroll the angel had to have been Jesus.
And as I have said repeatedly, the fact that Jesus conveys a message isn't being disputed. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears that you view angels as some sort of caste within creation. A created being, no? If that's the case, then this clearly isn't a proof text to begin with.
You're still missing out on the fact that you, and I, and anyone else who has read and comprehended John's writings already are well aware of what is within the scroll, and yet the fact remains that the final judgement hasn't taken place. See the problem? No, you'll never see the problem because you think you've discovered some proof that Jesus Christ is some lower form of creation. You've done no such thing because the text makes no claims to anyone being worthy to reveal the contents of the scroll to anyone. The only thing the text claims is that there is only one who is qualified to open the scroll.
Not everyone was worthy at the time
Correction. It hasn't happened yet. It is yet to come. The final judgement doesn't happen until the end of time, or the end of the age.
because it had to be told to someone so it could then be known by others.
Which necessarily negates your first claim. If others already know, then the final judgment is a joke because it doesn't matter who is worthy because everyone already knows what the scroll contains. You've created a paradox for skeptics to laugh at. Good job.
 

Nathan P

Active member
That was perfectly clear from the text. So you still aren't advancing much of an argument to begin with.

And as I have said repeatedly, the fact that Jesus conveys a message isn't being disputed. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears that you view angels as some sort of caste within creation. A created being, no? If that's the case, then this clearly isn't a proof text to begin with.
You're still missing out on the fact that you, and I, and anyone else who has read and comprehended John's writings already are well aware of what is within the scroll, and yet the fact remains that the final judgement hasn't taken place. See the problem? No, you'll never see the problem because you think you've discovered some proof that Jesus Christ is some lower form of creation. You've done no such thing because the text makes no claims to anyone being worthy to reveal the contents of the scroll to anyone. The only thing the text claims is that there is only one who is qualified to open the scroll.

Correction. It hasn't happened yet. It is yet to come. The final judgement doesn't happen until the end of time, or the end of the age.

Which necessarily negates your first claim. If others already know, then the final judgment is a joke because it doesn't matter who is worthy because everyone already knows what the scroll contains. You've created a paradox for skeptics to laugh at. Good job.
We are not talking about us being aware of the information. You admitted only Jesus can tell anyone the information correct? Who told John that information to write?
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
We are not talking about us being aware of the information.
Uh, yeah we most certainly are talking about that.
You admitted only Jesus can tell anyone the information correct?
Nope. Read your bible. It says nothing about who can or can't reveal this information. What is says is that only he is worthy to break the seals which are on the scroll. Only he is worthy to read what the scroll says.
Who told John that information to write?
Why don't you read it for yourself?

Again, if you read the Old Testament, you'll find a number of instances where "an angel of the Lord" spoke, but then in the very next verse, it says, "and the Lord said" So, by your logic, God is an angel.

Again, the message is clear. Angels convey messages from God. They essentially represent God to such a degree that it is no different than hearing it straight from God himself.
 

Nathan P

Active member
Uh, yeah we most certainly are talking about that.

Nope. Read your bible. It says nothing about who can or can't reveal this information. What is says is that only he is worthy to break the seals which are on the scroll. Only he is worthy to read what the scroll says.

Why don't you read it for yourself?

Again, if you read the Old Testament, you'll find a number of instances where "an angel of the Lord" spoke, but then in the very next verse, it says, "and the Lord said" So, by your logic, God is an angel.

Again, the message is clear. Angels convey messages from God. They essentially represent God to such a degree that it is no different than hearing it straight from God himself.
No you need to read it and you say only he is worthy to read what the scroll says correct? If only he can read the information only he can tell anyone about it. You want it to clearly say he told someone the information and common sense says since only he knows the information anyone told that information was told by him.

Next tell me at the first of revelations when it was given to Jesus by God to tell them what will happen soon is Jesus going to tell them what will happen soon? My point here is Jesus is not dumb and stupid and no one will need to repeat what he says because Jesus will make sure they got it right correct?
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
No you need to read it and you say only he is worthy to read what the scroll says correct? If only he can read the information only he can tell anyone about it. You want it to clearly say he told someone the information and common sense says since only he knows the information anyone told that information was told by him.

Next tell me at the first of revelations when it was given to Jesus by God to tell them what will happen soon is Jesus going to tell them what will happen soon? My point here is Jesus is not dumb and stupid and no one will need to repeat what he says because Jesus will make sure they got it right correct?
Whatever your point was, it just got lost in that rant.
 
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