We are not talking about now. Prove at the time the angel told John that information who was worthy other than Jesus?
Did Jesus create the angels?
- Thread starter jamesh
- Start date
So if it is not Michael the arc angel then who was the angel that called out to Abraham from heaven at Genesis 22:15 two times? Also at Genesis 22:11? Could it be Jesus?
IN HIM,
james
Leatherneck0311
Well-known member
You might want to read John 1:1 and John 1:14 . Then reread Where scripture says Jesus was the lamb slain before the foundation of the earth.🌏 1 Peter 1:19,20 …. but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifested (revealed) in these last times for you. Romans 6:10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all.
You're asking me who was worthy to tell John? That's not what the text says. The text indicates no one is worthy to open the scroll, and that scroll was not opened. That hasn't happened yet. John's revelation is of events that are yet to occur.
You're conflating the worthiness to open the scroll with the worthiness to reveal this to John. Anyone could reveal this to John, and even John is worthy to reveal it to us, and we're all worthy to convey this same message to anyone else.
Whether or not it has been opened who will or has been the only documented one who will be or was worthy to tell John the information?
I will try to get to that tomorrow.
Please read the following of what I wrote to someone else. I'm quoting what the JW's believe.
Excuse me justhefacts, I want to make "CLEAR" that Jesus Christ is "NOT" an actual angel nor is He Michael the archangel. You miss understood my position. The following is what I said:
When was Jesus created?
"God created Jesus before creating Adam. In fact, God created Jesus and then used him to make everything else, including the angels. That is why the Bible calls Jesus “the firstborn of all creation” by God.—Read Colossians 1:15, 16.I'm quoting what the JW's teach, not what I teach or believe. Jesus Christ is God Almighty in the flesh and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being, that would include the angels. John 1:3.
It's rather obvious to me that you do not understand that the Jewish word for angel in the Old Testament is "malak." This word simply means "messenger." Since you quoted Malachi 3:1 I will be glad to explain it to you.
"Behold, I am going to send My "malak/angel/messenger," and he will clear the way before Me. (Who's the Me?). And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple; (Who's the Lord that will come to His temple?) and the "malak/angel/messenger" of the covenant, (Who's the messenger of the covenant and where is this covenant found in the OT?) in whom you delight, (Who do you think we are going to be delighted to see?) behold, He is coming," (Who is the one coming?) says the Lord of hosts." (Who do you think is the Lord of hosts?)
Mark 1:1-4 identifies the "malak/angel/messenger" that clears the way of the Lord is none other than John the Baptist. And John is not an angel, he's a messenger who prepares the way of Jesus Christ, you know, the one who is coming to "HIS" temple and the one in whom we will be delighted to see.
The "malak/angel/messenger" of the covenant is God/the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ. Isaiah 40:3, "A voice is calling, Clear the way for the Lord in the wilderness; Make smooth in the desert a highway FOR OUR GOD." Judges 2:1, "Now the angel of the Lord came up from Gilgal to Bochim. And he said, "I brought you up out of Egypt and led you into the land which I HAVE SWORN TO YOUR FATHERS; AND SAID I WILL NEVER BREAK MY COVENANT."
So where did the angel of the Lord swear to Abraham the covenant? Genesis 22:15-18, "The the angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time from heaven, vs16, and said, "By Myself I have sworn, DECLARES THE LORD, because (or why) you have done this thing, and not withheld your son, your only son, (was Isaac Abraham's only son?) vs17, indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens, and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies."
So, it was the angel/messenger of the Lord who swore the oath or confirmed the covenant to Abraham. It is impossible that the angel of the Lord/the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ is an actual angel or even Michael the arc angel. The reason is because angels CANNOT swear oaths on behalf of God Himself. Hebrews 6:13-14 confirms this. "For when God make the promise to Abraham, since He could swear by no one greater, HE SWORE BY HIMSELF, vs14, saying, I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply you." I highly suggest you rethink you position and study your Bible.
IN GOD THE SON,
james
The text says nothing about who is worthy to tell John the information.
Leatherneck0311
Well-known member
Sorry !
But what is your point?
You are reading too quick and i am not talking about who is worthy to read what John wrote. Now slowly who was the only one worthy to take the scroll open it and know what is in it and then tell John what to write?
I'm well aware of that. You're asking who is worthy to reveal what is in the scroll to John, and I pointed out that the text makes no claims to anyone being worthy to reveal anything to John. The only thing the text mentions is who is worthy to open the scroll which by the time it actually happens will be pretty anticlimactic to everyone familiar with John's revelation.
What effective difference does it make when everyone already knows what is in the scroll? We're all worthy, if we all already know what's in the scroll.
What you are not getting is since only Jesus can open the scroll and know what is in it only he can tell anyone about it. Meaning since the angel told John about the scroll the angel had to have been Jesus. Not everyone was worthy at the time because it had to be told to someone so it could then be known by others.
I ask you the following question yesterday and you said you will get to it today. Here it is here:
I will try to get to that tomorrow.
IN HIM,
james
So far there is not enough information there to determine if the angel could have been Jesus.
That was perfectly clear from the text. So you still aren't advancing much of an argument to begin with.
And as I have said repeatedly, the fact that Jesus conveys a message isn't being disputed. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears that you view angels as some sort of caste within creation. A created being, no? If that's the case, then this clearly isn't a proof text to begin with.
You're still missing out on the fact that you, and I, and anyone else who has read and comprehended John's writings already are well aware of what is within the scroll, and yet the fact remains that the final judgement hasn't taken place. See the problem? No, you'll never see the problem because you think you've discovered some proof that Jesus Christ is some lower form of creation. You've done no such thing because the text makes no claims to anyone being worthy to reveal the contents of the scroll to anyone. The only thing the text claims is that there is only one who is qualified to open the scroll.
Correction. It hasn't happened yet. It is yet to come. The final judgement doesn't happen until the end of time, or the end of the age.
Which necessarily negates your first claim. If others already know, then the final judgment is a joke because it doesn't matter who is worthy because everyone already knows what the scroll contains. You've created a paradox for skeptics to laugh at. Good job.
We are not talking about us being aware of the information. You admitted only Jesus can tell anyone the information correct? Who told John that information to write?
Uh, yeah we most certainly are talking about that.
Nope. Read your bible. It says nothing about who can or can't reveal this information. What is says is that only he is worthy to break the seals which are on the scroll. Only he is worthy to read what the scroll says.
Why don't you read it for yourself?
Again, if you read the Old Testament, you'll find a number of instances where "an angel of the Lord" spoke, but then in the very next verse, it says, "and the Lord said" So, by your logic, God is an angel.
Again, the message is clear. Angels convey messages from God. They essentially represent God to such a degree that it is no different than hearing it straight from God himself.
No you need to read it and you say only he is worthy to read what the scroll says correct? If only he can read the information only he can tell anyone about it. You want it to clearly say he told someone the information and common sense says since only he knows the information anyone told that information was told by him.
Next tell me at the first of revelations when it was given to Jesus by God to tell them what will happen soon is Jesus going to tell them what will happen soon? My point here is Jesus is not dumb and stupid and no one will need to repeat what he says because Jesus will make sure they got it right correct?
Whatever your point was, it just got lost in that rant.