Did Jesus create the angels?

Nathan P

Active member
Whatever your point was, it just got lost in that rant.
The point is only Jesus will tell them what will happen soon and no one else. Now go to rev. 22:6 and it says an angel was sent to tell you what will happen soon correct? Meaning Jesus had to be the angel sent there or you are saying Jesus could not get it right and someone else had to correct Jesus. Do you get it that it does not have to directly say that Jesus would tell them the information and that we can figure out since only he knew the information that whoever told John the information had to have been Jesus because as you admitted only he knew the information?
 

imJRR

Well-known member
It has been proven many times Jesus was only an angel. Since John was told about the scroll in revelations and since only Jesus was worthy to know what was in the scroll after he took it from the Father rev. 5: 1-10 or 11 and it is an angel telling John about the scroll , then that means the angel telling John about the scroll has to be Jesus because only Jesus is worthy to tell anyone that information.

Nope. Jesus Himself openly and directly declared that seeing Him equals seeing God Himself in John 14:8-9.

Philip said to him: “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” 9 Jesus said to him: “Even after I have been with you men for such a long time, Philip, have you not come to know me? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How is it you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

Question: Who is "the Father"? What/Who is being referred to by that phrase?
Obvious Answer: God Himself. Considering the context of who and what Philip is – a Jew – There is no other honest way to understand the phrase in Philip's request. Philip wants to see God Himself. This is not refutable.
Jesus, knowing full well who and what Philip is and the only possible meaning to his request, straightforwardly tells Philip, "If you've seen Me, you've seen Him. If you've seen me, you've seen God Himself." There is no other honest way to take that answer.
Jesus Christ openly declares that seeing Him = Seeing God Himself.

JWs say that Jesus is Michael the archangel. No, that doesn't work, and it doesn't work BIG TIME. Michael's name means "Who Is Like God?" Obvious answer: NO ONE.
There is NO way that Michael would have made the claim for himself that Jesus makes in verse 9. He would have been
a) going directly against the meaning of his own name, and
b) committing blasphemy.

Add to this the fact that there is no verse in the Bible that states that Jesus is really Michael.

Add to this the fact that the Father openly and directly calls the Son "God" in Hebrews 1:8.

And there are plenty of other verses that show the Deity of Christ.
 

Nathan P

Active member
Nope. Jesus Himself openly and directly declared that seeing Him equals seeing God Himself in John 14:8-9.

Philip said to him: “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” 9 Jesus said to him: “Even after I have been with you men for such a long time, Philip, have you not come to know me? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How is it you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

Question: Who is "the Father"? What/Who is being referred to by that phrase?
Obvious Answer: God Himself. Considering the context of who and what Philip is – a Jew – There is no other honest way to understand the phrase in Philip's request. Philip wants to see God Himself. This is not refutable.
Jesus, knowing full well who and what Philip is and the only possible meaning to his request, straightforwardly tells Philip, "If you've seen Me, you've seen Him. If you've seen me, you've seen God Himself." There is no other honest way to take that answer.
Jesus Christ openly declares that seeing Him = Seeing God Himself.

JWs say that Jesus is Michael the archangel. No, that doesn't work, and it doesn't work BIG TIME. Michael's name means "Who Is Like God?" Obvious answer: NO ONE.
There is NO way that Michael would have made the claim for himself that Jesus makes in verse 9. He would have been
a) going directly against the meaning of his own name, and
b) committing blasphemy.

Add to this the fact that there is no verse in the Bible that states that Jesus is really Michael.

Add to this the fact that the Father openly and directly calls the Son "God" in Hebrews 1:8.

And there are plenty of other verses that show the Deity of Christ.
You want to avoid the point that Jesus is an angel because only he knows certain information and can tell anyone that information, proving whoever tells someone that information is Jesus.
 

Nathan P

Active member
Nope. Jesus Himself openly and directly declared that seeing Him equals seeing God Himself in John 14:8-9.

Philip said to him: “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” 9 Jesus said to him: “Even after I have been with you men for such a long time, Philip, have you not come to know me? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How is it you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

Question: Who is "the Father"? What/Who is being referred to by that phrase?
Obvious Answer: God Himself. Considering the context of who and what Philip is – a Jew – There is no other honest way to understand the phrase in Philip's request. Philip wants to see God Himself. This is not refutable.
Jesus, knowing full well who and what Philip is and the only possible meaning to his request, straightforwardly tells Philip, "If you've seen Me, you've seen Him. If you've seen me, you've seen God Himself." There is no other honest way to take that answer.
Jesus Christ openly declares that seeing Him = Seeing God Himself.

JWs say that Jesus is Michael the archangel. No, that doesn't work, and it doesn't work BIG TIME. Michael's name means "Who Is Like God?" Obvious answer: NO ONE.
There is NO way that Michael would have made the claim for himself that Jesus makes in verse 9. He would have been
a) going directly against the meaning of his own name, and
b) committing blasphemy.

Add to this the fact that there is no verse in the Bible that states that Jesus is really Michael.

Add to this the fact that the Father openly and directly calls the Son "God" in Hebrews 1:8.

And there are plenty of other verses that show the Deity of Christ.
And when we see each other we see humans. Now when they see each other they are seeing something similar like we are similar.
 

imJRR

Well-known member
LOL! Nope. The verses I've put forth ARE the REAL, BIBLICAL point.
Jesus is not an angel - The verses I've shown prove that.
And I can show more.
You can deny and reject them all you want - But that's all you can do.
That's what it is and means to be a JW - Reject and Deny and Run Away from what Scripture actually says and shows

Jesus openly, clearly, directly and irrefutably declared that seeing Him equals God Himself in John 14:8-9. He tells Thomas the same thing in verse 7. There's not even a faint whisper of a hint of the "something similar" nonsense you have put forth. He doesn't say at all that seeing Him is "like" seeing God. You have to intentionally and deliberately read that idea into the verse in order to intentionally and deliberately pervert the verse to your view.

And - The Father does openly and directly call the Son "God" in Heb. 1:8.
You can't do anything about this.
 
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Nathan P

Active member
LOL! Nope. The verses I've put forth ARE the REAL, BIBLICAL point.
Jesus is not an angel - The verses I've shown prove that.
And I can show more.
You can deny and reject them all you want - But that's all you can do.
That's what it is and means to be a JW - Reject and Deny and Run Away from what Scripture actually says and shows

Jesus openly, clearly, directly and irrefutably declared that seeing Him equals God Himself in John 14:8-9. He tells Thomas the same thing in verse 7. There's not even a faint whisper of a hint of the "something similar" nonsense you have put forth. He doesn't say at all that seeing Him is "like" seeing God. You have to intentionally and deliberately read that idea into the verse in order to intentionally and deliberately pervert the verse to your view.

And - The Father does openly and directly call the Son "God" in Heb. 1:8.
You can't do anything about this.
You are doing it the wrong way by avoiding the subject and not refuting me. If Jesus is the only one who knows that information then he has to be the angel who tells John that information. Now instead of running to your points stick to the subject at hand and prove who other than Jesus was worthy to know that information?
 

Nathan P

Active member
You are doing it the wrong way by avoiding the subject and not refuting me. If Jesus is the only one who knows that information then he has to be the angel who tells John that information. Now instead of running to your points stick to the subject at hand and prove who other than Jesus was worth return there is no way you can refute what I provided as evidence that Jesus is only an angel.

Nope. Jesus Himself openly and directly declared that seeing Him equals seeing God Himself in John 14:8-9.

Philip said to him: “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” 9 Jesus said to him: “Even after I have been with you men for such a long time, Philip, have you not come to know me? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How is it you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

Question: Who is "the Father"? What/Who is being referred to by that phrase?
Obvious Answer: God Himself. Considering the context of who and what Philip is – a Jew – There is no other honest way to understand the phrase in Philip's request. Philip wants to see God Himself. This is not refutable.
Jesus, knowing full well who and what Philip is and the only possible meaning to his request, straightforwardly tells Philip, "If you've seen Me, you've seen Him. If you've seen me, you've seen God Himself." There is no other honest way to take that answer.
Jesus Christ openly declares that seeing Him = Seeing God Himself.

JWs say that Jesus is Michael the archangel. No, that doesn't work, and it doesn't work BIG TIME. Michael's name means "Who Is Like God?" Obvious answer: NO ONE.
There is NO way that Michael would have made the claim for himself that Jesus makes in verse 9. He would have been
a) going directly against the meaning of his own name, and
b) committing blasphemy.

Add to this the fact that there is no verse in the Bible that states that Jesus is really Michael.

Add to this the fact that the Father openly and directly calls the Son "God" in Hebrews 1:8.

And there are plenty of other verses that show the Deity of Christ.
I could refute those scriptures if I had time and in return you do not even try to refute what I provided because you can not refute what I provided as evidence.
And John 14: 8-14 is talking about the work they do together.
 
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Nathan P

Active member
False. The text says nothing about the worthiness of those who relay this information.

Nope. I'm not the one saying that.

It doesn't say he has to tell them directly either. Where does it say he can tell John, but he can't tell some other messenger to convey the message to John?
Who is saying anything about worthiness here? The fact is it was given to Jesus and since Jesus was going to make sure they got it down right , then no one else would repeat what he said and thus the angel sent at rev. 22:6 had to have been Jesus. Or can you document who else besides Jesus was going to tell them what would happen soon?
 

imJRR

Well-known member
I could refute those scriptures if I had time and in return you do not even try to refute what I provided because you can not refute what I provided as evidence.
And John 14: 8-14 is talking about the work they do together.

LOL! The above is very easily seen to be a totally empty boast and nothing more at all. Any honest and fair-minded person can very easily see that what you provided has been solidly refuted by what I posted. The fact, truth, and reality is this: You have no ability at all whatsoever to refute the clear, direct, open, and irrefutable declaration of Jesus in John 14:7-9; nor do you have any ability at all whatsoever to refute the fact that the Father openly and directly calls the Son "God" in Hebrews 1:8. All you have done and can do is run away from them.
That's what it means and is to be a JW.
 

Nathan P

Active member
LOL! The above is very easily seen to be a totally empty boast and nothing more at all. Any honest and fair-minded person can very easily see that what you provided has been solidly refuted by what I posted. The fact, truth, and reality is this: You have no ability at all whatsoever to refute the clear, direct, open, and irrefutable declaration of Jesus in John 14:7-9; nor do you have any ability at all whatsoever to refute the fact that the Father openly and directly calls the Son "God" in Hebrews 1:8. All you have done and can do is run away from them.
That's what it means and is to be a JW.
And men are called God in the bible too. Are they equal to the Father and the Son because they are called God? I see you know the angel who told John that information was Jesus because you know no one but Jesus could tell anyone that information.
 

imJRR

Well-known member
And men are called God in the bible too. Are they equal to the Father and the Son because they are called God? I see you know the angel who told John that information was Jesus because you know no one but Jesus could tell anyone that information.

LOL! Nope. Once again, nothing you have written refutes in any way at all the clear, direct, open, and irrefutable declaration of Jesus in John 14:7-9. Nor has anything you have written show any ability at all whatsoever to refute the fact that the Father openly and directly calls the Son "God" in Hebrews 1:8. All you have done and can do is run away from those verses.
That's what it means and is to be a JW.
 

imJRR

Well-known member
Nope - I haven't over-stated anything, and nothing I have said has been refuted at all. The context of who and what Thomas and Philip are - Jews - dictates the only honest possible meaning of Christ's Self declaration. The response Jesus gave was solidly within that context, and He used the same only possible honest meaning for "the Father" that Philip used - It is that of "God Himself." As for Christ being the "image" of God, the word "image" can also be rendered "visible manifestation". The verse is clearly stating that Jesus Christ is God Manifest, God Incarnate.

Amplified Bible Colossians 1:15
He is the exact living image [the essential manifestation] of the unseen God [the visible representation of the invisible], the firstborn [the preeminent one, the sovereign, and the originator] of all creation.
 

imJRR

Well-known member
Nope. You're wrong again and here is why and how: What I am doing is refuting the JW false teaching regarding Who Christ is. I am presenting what Scripture says about Him. The context of who and what Thomas and Philip are - Jews - dictates the only honest possible meaning of Christ's declaration. The response Jesus gave was solidly within that context, and He used the same only possible honest meaning for "the Father" that Philip used - It is that of "God Himself." Seeing Jesus Christ equals seeing God Himself, period.

Regarding Colossians 1:15, the verse says "He is the image - the visible manifestation or incarnation - of God Himself. And He is a Person, distinct from the Father, in Whom all the fullness of God dwells. Everything the Father is, the Son is - the qualities and attributes that make God, God, are also in Christ. And your post's attempt to gradually move Christ from being a person to a personality to a persona/a mask, plus your seeming inference that Christ is more like "an attribute of God rather than who God is" is simply not what the Bible says about Christ, nor how it presents Christ. So - I believe it is accurate to say that you reject the biblical witness concerning Who Christ is.

And you're also not a JW.
 
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imJRR

Well-known member
Sorry My bad If I could ignore these posts in the JW forum I would, but since I can't I guess I'll have to just place you on ignore. Again, I'm sorry I didn't notice this was a JW forum.

LOL! Suuuure you didn't notice. What an open, blatant falsehood that is! You know and have known full well what this board is.

And then there's this: "If I could ignore these posts I would, but I can't."
Riiight. You have no self-control at all.
And - In order to respond to the posts at all, you HAVE to know where they come from and you have to intentionally come to this board - the JW board - knowing full well what it is.
So - Another open, blatant falsehood. Actually, two of them.

Also - I think it's pretty obvious to any honest and fair-minded person who reads the exchanges that the REAL reason for putting me on 'ignore' is that you have no ability to refute what my posts have said. I'm very content to let those readers decide between us on this.
 
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imJRR

Well-known member
Clarification/Explanation: The 3 most recent posts by me above are in response to another poster. That person's posts have been removed.
 

Nathan P

Active member
LOL! Nope. Once again, nothing you have written refutes in any way at all the clear, direct, open, and irrefutable declaration of Jesus in John 14:7-9. Nor has anything you have written show any ability at all whatsoever to refute the fact that the Father openly and directly calls the Son "God" in Hebrews 1:8. All you have done and can do is run away from those verses.
That's what it means and is to be a JW.
No you are refuted until you can provide who else but Jesus can tell anyone that information.
 

Nathan P

Active member
Anyone who has read the book of revelation can tell anyone who cares to listen.
No one has provided the information of who besides Jesus knows that information and you all beat around the bush knowing you can not do that and just stall the conversation with your answers that you have no evidence for.
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
No one has provided the information of who besides Jesus knows that information
I just refuted your claim. The book of revelation is AN OPEN BOOK!!! Anyone can pick it up and read it, and know what it says, and then go right out and convey that exact same message to anyone who has the ears to hear. Have you read it? Then you can also know what it says.
and you all beat around the bush knowing you can not do that
People have been revealing what the book of revelation says for literally thousands of years! Read a history book for crying out loud.
and just stall the conversation with your answers that you have no evidence for.
The evidence is empirically obvious and irrefutable. Prove me wrong. How can hundreds of thousands of people read the book of revelation and not know what it says? What do you want us to do, copy and paste the whole book here?

Here's the link: Now you have evidence that the book is open for you to read and know what it says.

 

Nathan P

Active member
I just refuted your claim. The book of revelation is AN OPEN BOOK!!! Anyone can pick it up and read it, and know what it says, and then go right out and convey that exact same message to anyone who has the ears to hear. Have you read it? Then you can also know what it says.

People have been revealing what the book of revelation says for literally thousands of years! Read a history book for crying out loud.

The evidence is empirically obvious and irrefutable. Prove me wrong. How can hundreds of thousands of people read the book of revelation and not know what it says? What do you want us to do, copy and paste the whole book here?

Here's the link: Now you have evidence that the book is open for you to read and know what it says.

WE are talking about then who was worthy to tell the information to the angel and not now as you claim. Or I refuted you.
 
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