Did Jesus die on the Cross, as a Human and/or as GOD as well ???

S

SDAchristian

Well-known member
Prologue:
I need some insight from other apologists on this subject.
AV Mt 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

The Catch22 is the truth of Jesus' words on the cross.

Did Jesus die on the Cross, as a Human(obviously true) and/or as GOD as well ???

The other question is: Did Jesus stop being GOD, when GOD left("forsaken") Jesus to be a normal human being to die ???

Yours in Christ, Michael
 
S

Stephen

Active member
(Speaking as one who denies the trinity, but will give my observations of how trinitarians will variously answer the question)


One camp will argue that Jesus had to die as God to pay for our sins. Since Jesus was never a human person (see doctrine of Anhypostasis), but rather God enfleshed, the only way Jesus could said to be dead is if he died as God. And God had to die to be sufficient payment to the Father for people's sins.

One camp will argue that God cannot die, so the only thing that died on the cross was the human suit. Jesus the person never died. I'm not sure which Atonement Model is being applied in this case.


There may be a 3rd camp that I missed and would be interested to see.


The problems with these theories is how they relate to other doctrines in scripture. In the former case, humans killing an intrinsically immortal person with whips, hammers, and nails seems to be outrageous on its face. In the latter case, no person died for anybody's sins.
 
PeanutGallery

PeanutGallery

Well-known member
How does one define death:
1) separation from the body?
2) loss of consciousness?


On the cross, God manifest in the flesh, separated himself from the body, without losing his consciousness?
 
Dant01

Dant01

Active member
.
I think that, under interrogation, most Christians would readily consent that Jesus
Christ is fully God and fully Man, while in the backs of their minds actually believing
he's a divine hominid, i.e. a human-like being resembling Adam but not related to
Adam.

I've even encountered a number of Christians online who honestly believe that baby
Jesus was implanted in Mary's womb so that she was his surrogate mother rather
than his biological mother.
_
 
S

SDAchristian

Well-known member
Prologue:
AV Mt 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
PeanutGallery said:
On the cross, God manifest in the flesh, separated himself from the body, without losing his consciousness?
Click to expand...
AV Ac 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
AV Ac 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Where was Jesus' soul during the first death("which kill the body") ???

Yours in Christ, Michael
 
PeanutGallery

PeanutGallery

Well-known member
SDAchristian said:
Prologue:
AV Mt 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

AV Ac 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
AV Ac 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Where was Jesus' soul during the first death("which kill the body") ???

Yours in Christ, Michael
Click to expand...
Are you asking about consciousness; if so, then Jesus' soul was as conscious as the rich man in Luke 16.
 
S

SDAchristian

Well-known member
Prologue:
AV Jn 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
AV Jn 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
Dant01 said:
I've even encountered a number of Christians online who honestly believe that baby
Jesus was implanted in Mary's womb so that she was his surrogate mother rather
than his biological mother.
Click to expand...
I will acknowledge that people during these times, had no more medical knowledge of genetics, other than reproductive actions and their consequences.

What I find interesting is POV, men called Mary, Jesus' mother. Jesus called her "Woman". Note the narrative difference.

AV Jn 2:4-5 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come. 5 His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do [it].
AV Jn 19:26 When Jesus therefore saw his mother{G3384}, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!

Note the Words of GOD in Omniscience, versus the words of man.

So do you know of any instance of Jesus using "Mother" in direct reference to Mary, using Textus Receptus based scriptures ??? <<< Catholics tampered with their resources.

Then there are the verses, that Jesus said, his Mother are those who do GOD's will, so multiple mothers.
Bottom line: Food for Thought !!!
Jesus did NOT Omniscienetly acknowledge Mary's genetic contribution to Jesus' flesh. Noting: Since when did a Creator need genetic assistance from a human for DNA resources ???

AV Lk 2:48-50 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing. 49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business? 50 And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them.

Also we find Jesus praying to the Father as an spiritual authority, but not to Mother. <<< Think about this !!!

A low blow to Catholic understanding of parental authority over Jesus' flesh. As far as I am concerned, a pagan carryover from ancestor worship.

Yours in Christ, Michael
 
S

SDAchristian

Well-known member
Prologue:
There all kinds of Catch22s, in Truth.

AV Jn 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

I am NOT discounting special resurrections, like Lazarus', and end time special ones.

Check Question: How did Jesus leave the grave, what method ???

AV Lk 20:2-8 And spake unto him, saying, Tell us, by what authority doest thou these things? or who is he that gave thee this authority? 3 And he answered and said unto them, I will also ask you one thing; and answer me: 4 The baptism of John, was it from heaven, or of men? 5 And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say, Why then believed ye him not? 6 But and if we say, Of men; all the people will stone us: for they be persuaded that John was a prophet. 7 And they answered, that they could not tell whence [it was]. 8 And Jesus said unto them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things.

Then there is the "authority" issue as well.
PeanutGallery said:
Are you asking about consciousness; if so, then Jesus' soul was as conscious as the rich man in Luke 16.
Click to expand...
Catch22 Alert !!!
Your opinion please: "... the rich man in Luke 16.", Parable or direct spiritual truth ???

Yours in Christ, Michael
 
Theophilos

Theophilos

Active member
SDAchristian said:
Prologue:
I need some insight from other apologists on this subject.
AV Mt 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

The Catch22 is the truth of Jesus' words on the cross.

Did Jesus die on the Cross, as a Human(obviously true) and/or as GOD as well ???

The other question is: Did Jesus stop being GOD, when GOD left("forsaken") Jesus to be a normal human being to die ???

Yours in Christ, Michael
Click to expand...

Physicists would call this a singularity. How can immortal God experience human death?

The Eastern Church embraces and celebrates mysteries such as these:

When you descended to death, O Immortal Life, you destroyed Hades by the brilliance of your divinity; and when you raised the dead from the depths of the earth, all the heavenly powers cried out: O Giver of Life, Christ our God, glory to you.
Troparion of the Resurrection
 
S

SDAchristian

Well-known member
Theophilos said:
The Eastern Church embraces and celebrates mysteries such as these:
When you descended to death, O Immortal Life, you destroyed Hades by the brilliance of your divinity; and when you raised the dead from the depths of the earth, all the heavenly powers cried out: O Giver of Life, Christ our God, glory to you.
Troparion of the Resurrection
Click to expand...
We do NOT share these words, as the words of GOD in canon, but as men's words outside of canon.

As such, they have little to no spiritual meaning to me, in their authority from men.

Yours in Christ, Michael
 
S

SDAchristian

Well-known member
Prologue:
AV Ga 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught [it], but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Theophilos said:
Physicists would call this a singularity. How can immortal God experience human death?
Click to expand...
AV Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

So you have issues with what Paul wrote ???

Yours in Christ, Michael
 
Theophilos

Theophilos

Active member
SDAchristian said:
We do NOT share these words, as the words of GOD in canon, but as men's words outside of canon.

As such, they have little to no spiritual meaning to me, in their authority from men.

Yours in Christ, Michael
Click to expand...
The hymn summarizes multiple bible passages. Here are some example verses:

Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? Eph 4:9 NKJV

. . . God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him.
Acts 2:24

. . . Because of the blood of your covenant, I will set your prisoners free from the waterless pit. Zech 9:11

For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.
1 Peter 3:18-22
 
Theophilos

Theophilos

Active member
SDAchristian said:
Prologue:
AV Ga 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught [it], but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

AV Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

So you have issues with what Paul wrote ???

Yours in Christ, Michael
Click to expand...

I have no issues with the bible quotes.

It is still a mystery about how eternal God can experience death. The result was the destruction of the power of death.
 
GeneZ

GeneZ

Well-known member
SDAchristian said:
Prologue:
I need some insight from other apologists on this subject.
AV Mt 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

The Catch22 is the truth of Jesus' words on the cross.

Did Jesus die on the Cross, as a Human(obviously true) and/or as GOD as well ???

The other question is: Did Jesus stop being GOD, when GOD left("forsaken") Jesus to be a normal human being to die ???

Yours in Christ, Michael
Click to expand...
Obviously.... Jesus did not die physically to pay the penalty for our sins. For a dead man can not cry out like Jesus did while being forsaken.

Jesus died like Adam died.

When Adam ate the fruit? God did not lie. Adam died.

................. "Spiritually."

grace and peace ...........
 
Bob Carabbio

Bob Carabbio

Well-known member
SDAchristian said:
Prologue:
I need some insight from other apologists on this subject.
AV Mt 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

The Catch22 is the truth of Jesus' words on the cross.

Did Jesus die on the Cross, as a Human(obviously true) and/or as GOD as well ???

The other question is: Did Jesus stop being GOD, when GOD left("forsaken") Jesus to be a normal human being to die ???

Yours in Christ, Michael
Click to expand...
What PROBABLY OCCURRED on the Cross was that the Holy Spirit, who joined Himself to Jesus following John's Baptism, departed from Him, and Jesus died a HUMAN MAN - albeit the ONLY HUMAN without Sin - so that He could be the perfect SIN OFFERING for Adamic Humanity - by which we can be CLEANSED (not just "covered" as the Old Testament sacrifice could only do - temporarily).

Of course since NOBODY actually has any real concept of the entirety of God, or His workings, it's all "theological guesswork".
 
GeneZ

GeneZ

Well-known member
Bob Carabbio said:
What PROBABLY OCCURRED on the Cross was that the Holy Spirit, who joined Himself to Jesus following John's Baptism, departed from Him, and Jesus died a HUMAN MAN - albeit the ONLY HUMAN without Sin - so that He could be the perfect SIN OFFERING for Adamic Humanity - by which we can be CLEANSED (not just "covered" as the Old Testament sacrifice could only do - temporarily).

Of course since NOBODY actually has any real concept of the entirety of God, or His workings, it's all "theological guesswork".
Click to expand...
The death that Jesus died had to take place before his physical death.... For before he volunteered to exhale his last breath? He declared to the Word that all that needed to be done to pay for our sins was "Finished!"

We often miss the reality of what spiritual death is.

We are born spiritually dead because of our sin nature we inherited from Adam.

Jesus died spiritually because of coming in direct contact with our sins, so that we may be made spiritually alive when we believe.

And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked ​
according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit ​
who now works in the sons of disobedience." Eph 2:1-2​


Adam remained physically alive after he ate. Yet, he died as he was warned he would.

Adam ate and instantly died, "spiritually."

To reverse this effect, while on the Cross, Jesus died spiritually because of our sins piercing Him!


grace and peace ........
 
Bob Carabbio

Bob Carabbio

Well-known member
GeneZ said:
We are born spiritually dead because of our sin nature we inherited from Adam.
Click to expand...
We don't HAVE a "Sin nature". We have a HUMAN NATURE same as Adam, and Jesus had.
GeneZ said:
Jesus died spiritually because of coming in direct contact with our sins, so that we may be made spiritually alive when we believe.
Click to expand...
Jesus never died "Spiritually" since he never SINNED. Our Sin was put ON HIM, but it was never HIS, and His Resurrection proves that His SIN OFFERING was valid.
GeneZ said:
Adam ate and instantly died, "spiritually."
Click to expand...
True -
GeneZ said:
To reverse this effect, while on the Cross, Jesus died spiritually because of our sins piercing Him!
Click to expand...
Jesus certainly DIED Physically, and Our Sin was ON HIM (whatever that means), but Jesus remained perfect and sinless throughout. His BLOOD is the perfect SIN OFFERING that cleanses from SIN - IF we repent and surrender under Conviction, and call on God in the FAITH HE SUPPLIES.
 
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