Did Jesus really fulfill all of the laws???

Jewjitzu

Well-known member
It is commonly said that Jesus fulfilled all of the laws, and in return fulfilled all of the laws for us. But is this really true?

There are some commandments that he could not have fulfilled on his own, but with the help of others.

1) Circumcision - his parents had this done for him, i.e., Lev 12:3

2) Consecration of first born - Joseph did this for him, i.e., Exodus 13:2

3) Redemption of first born - Joseph did this for him, i.e., Numbers 18:15

Are there more? Could be. But the point is that Jesus was "saved" as a result of others keeping the law for him.
 

docphin5

Well-known member
It is commonly said that Jesus fulfilled all of the laws, and in return fulfilled all of the laws for us. But is this really true?
Yes, because the whole law is summed up as “love your neighbor”.

“For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” (Gal 5:14)

”but you shall love your neighbor as yourself” (Lev 19:18)

There are some commandments that he could not have fulfilled on his own, but with the help of others.

1) Circumcision - his parents had this done for him, i.e., Lev 12:3

2) Consecration of first born - Joseph did this for him, i.e., Exodus 13:2

3) Redemption of first born - Joseph did this for him, i.e., Numbers 18:15

Are there more? Could be. But the point is that Jesus was "saved" as a result of others keeping the law for him.
What about animal sacrifice? Animal sacrifice is required by the Mosaic law and nobody is doing them (thank goodness) so can anyone be “saved” or not? If those requirements of the law were not required for salvation then why would any requirements from the Mosaic law be required, other than those summed up as “love your neighbor”?
 

Jewjitzu

Well-known member
Yes, because the whole law is summed up as “love your neighbor”.
But others fulfilled at least 3 commandments for him, so he didn't fulfill them all.

“For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” (Gal 5:14)
In essence, but you need to know the details of the rest of the laws to know how to love your neighbor.

”but you shall love your neighbor as yourself” (Lev 19:18)
Yep.

What about animal sacrifice? Animal sacrifice is required by the Mosaic
God's law requires it.

law and nobody is doing them (thank goodness) so can anyone be “saved” or not?
Well, it was prophesied that a time would occur as this, and prayer would suffice as bulls, Hosea 14:2.

Daniel and his generation were saved without sacrifices.

If those requirements of the law were not required for salvation then why would any requirements from the Mosaic law be required, other than those summed up as “love your neighbor”?
You left off the commandments that entails love of God.

Love your neighbor is in the law. You need the other laws to truly know how to love your neighbor.

But anyway, you haven't answered why Jesus is considered perfect in the law when he didn't fulfill at least 3 of them?
 

docphin5

Well-known member
But others fulfilled at least 3 commandments for him, so he didn't fulfill them all.


In essence, but you need to know the details of the rest of the laws to know how to love your neighbor.


Yep.


God's law requires it.


Well, it was prophesied that a time would occur as this, and prayer would suffice as bulls, Hosea 14:2.

Daniel and his generation were saved without sacrifices.


You left off the commandments that entails love of God.

Love your neighbor is in the law. You need the other laws to truly know how to love your neighbor.

But anyway, you haven't answered why Jesus is considered perfect in the law when he didn't fulfill at least 3 of them?
One could argue that the “sum of the law” was fulfilled by him, that is, to love ones neighbor. And there is no greater love than to give ones life for saving another, which, he allegedly did, according to the Gospels.

The more abstract idea, one I lean towards, is that he fulfilled the spiritual or allegorical meaning of the law. For example, using an example of yours, that is circumcision, the better (Spiritual) meaning would be to cut away the inordinate desires of the flesh, whereas, actual penile circumcision has no efficacy for salvation. If it did then Muslims would be saved and the Egyptian priests would have been saved, who BTW, were conducting circumcision a thousand years before Hebrews did. It demonstrates how much the Hebrews borrowed from their neighbors.
 

docphin5

Well-known member

You do not fulfill all the Mosaic commandments so how do you get saved? Right? You do not sacrifice animals do you, as commanded by YOUR Mosaic Law? So how do you get ”saved”? I am not deflecting but trying to get you to start thinking beyond a mere literal meaning, for example, “the Law says I must sacrifice an animal.” The point being that if no one can meet the requirements of the Law then your whole religion has a problem, not just Jesus! BUT if there is a way to fulfill the whole Mosaic Law without literally doing what it requires then HOW can it be done? Apparently, Jesus figured that out. Paul figured that out. You are still stuck in the weeds trying to figure out how others can be saved, specifically, Jesus, without fulfilling the whole Mosaic Law.
 
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Jewjitzu

Well-known member
You do not fulfill all the commandments so how do you get saved? Right?
Not all commandments apply to me.

You do not sacrifice animals do you, as commanded by YOUR Mosaic Law.
God's law. Jesus didn't get cleansed from his defilement in the Praetorium in John 18:28, Numbers 19, according to God's law.

So how do you get ”saved”? I am not deflecting but trying to get you to start thinking of beyond a mere literal meaning, for example, “the Law says I must sacridice an animal.”
Not required all of time. God saves us like He did in Egypt.

If no one can meet the requirements of the Law then your whole religion gas a problem, not just Jesus!
How did Daniel and his generation manage? Is a comma patient obligated in the law? Is an infant obligated in the whole law?
 

American Gothic

Well-known member
How many Mosaic commands would Jesus have had to observe?
How many Rabbinic directives specifically on top of that would have been required of Him?

How many of Each are required of a Jew today?
 

docphin5

Well-known member
Not all commandments apply to me.


God's law. Jesus didn't get cleansed from his defilement in the Praetorium in John 18:28, Numbers 19, according to God's law.


Not required all of time. God saves us like He did in Egypt.


How did Daniel and his generation manage? Is a comma patient obligated in the law? Is an infant obligated in the whole law?
Right, so the Mosaic law does NOT apply in some cases. Apparently, Jesus and Paul figured that out to include when they do not apply at all, like when they are summed up in loving your neighbor. Clearly, there is a HIGHER law that surpasses the Mosaic Law. Come out of the Dark Ages Jewitzu and join the rest of humanity. We don’t sacrifice animals. We don’t need food purity laws. We do work on the Sabbath, especially those in healthcare and law enforcement. Etc. Etc. Put your Bible down and look around you. The Mosaic Law is fading away, just as Paul said it did 2,000 years ago.

”Indeed, in this case, what once had glory has come to have no glory at all, because of the glory that surpasses it. For if what was being brought to an end came with glory, much more will what is permanent have glory.

Since we have such a hope, we are very bold, not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face so that the Israelites might not gaze at the outcome of what was being brought to an end.” (2 cor 3:11)
 
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Jewjitzu

Well-known member
How many Mosaic commands would Jesus have had to observe?
All of laws related to the temple standing, living in Israel, those obligated on men, etc.

In all, there are 613 commandments, with some only applicable to men, women, priests, slaves, masters, kings, husbands, wives, children, etc. So no one is obligated in all of them.

How many Rabbinic directives specifically on top of that would have been required of Him?
7 Rabbinical.
 

Jewjitzu

Well-known member
Right, so the Mosaic laws do pes NOT apply in some cases. Apparently, Jesus and Paul figured that out when they do not apply at all, like when they are summed up in loving your neighbor.
Nope, you can't love your neighbor without knowing the details of the others.

Of course there are times when it's impossible to fulfill things and God knows that.

Clearly, there is a HIGHER law than the Mosaic Law.
Clearly the laws came from a HIGHER source than Moses.

Come out of the dark ages Jewitzu and join the rest of humanity. We don’t sacrifice animals. We don’t need food purity laws.
We do what God requires and says.

We do work on the Sabbath, especially those in healthcare.
We don't purposely violate the Sabbath, and heal when we have to limited to what has to be done.

Etc. Etc. Put your Bible down and look around you. The Mosaic Law is fading away, just as Paul said it did 2,000 years ago.
Edit per mod.

”Indeed, in this case, what once had glory has come to have no glory at all, because of the glory that surpasses it. For if what was being brought to an end came with glory, much more will what is permanent have glory.” (2 cor 3:11)
Rotfl... nothing came to an end. Until Heaven and Earth...
 
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docphin5

Well-known member
Nope, you can't love your neighbor without knowing the details of the others.
That is absolute nonsense and you SHOULD know it. Your telling me that humans cannot love their neighbor without following food purity laws?! Do you know how absurd that sounds? It suggests the level of indoctrination you have been exposed to. It is sad to see a human mind in such confusion.

Of course there are times when it's impossible to fulfill things and God knows that.


Clearly the laws came from a HIGHER source than Moses.


We do what God requires and says.


We don't purposely violate the Sabbath, and heal when we have to limited to what has to be done.


Actually, you must some trouble understanding that God gave all of the laws. And they still apply.


Rotfl... nothing came to an end. Until Heaven and Earth...
 

Jewjitzu

Well-known member
???????
Jesus was a little more than "just human". He was one of the "us" in let us make man in our image.
Nah, just human. He wasn't around until Mary birthed him.

I've explained Gen 1:26 to you before. A singular God is speaking. The angels were around and being commanded, ie, earth, wind, fire, air.
 

American Gothic

Well-known member
All of laws related to the temple standing, living in Israel, those obligated on men, etc.

In all, there are 613 commandments, with some only applicable to men, women, priests, slaves, masters, kings, husbands, wives, children, etc. So no one is obligated in all of them.


7 Rabbinical.
so How Many of each for a working class Jewish man of first century?
if that can't be definitively answered, then what is the point of this topic?

how many Oral law Rabbinic directives were there just for the Sabbath for example....
how many exist that must be followed now for "complete Law compliance"?
 

Jewjitzu

Well-known member
That is absolute nonsense and you SHOULD know it. Your telling me that humans cannot love their neighbor without following food purity laws?!
Would you serve your neighbor crap, insects, strangled animals, blood, etc.

If this is your diet, have at it.

Do you know how absurd that sounds? It suggests the level of indoctrination you have been exposed to. It is sad to see a human mind in such confusion.
Do you know how unlearned you are?
 

Jewjitzu

Well-known member
so How Many of each for a working class Jewish man of first century?
if that can't be definitively answered, then what is the point of this topic?

how many Oral law Rabbinic directives were there for the Sabbath for example....
how many exist that must be followed now for complete Law compliance?
The point is Jesus didn't fulfill at least 3 laws, and getting by with someone else's righteousness. I gave the 3 already, AG. Talk to that.
 

CrowCross

Super Member
Nah, just human. He wasn't around until Mary birthed him.
True in a physical sense, Jesus hadn't incarnated until Mary birthed Him...but we do know that the Word who was God became flesh. So, yes, He was around.
I've explained Gen 1:26 to you before. A singular God is speaking. The angels were around and being commanded, ie, earth, wind, fire, air.
And you got it wrong. That was explained to you.
I do believe the angels watch Adam being made by God....but we were made in Gods image, not angels images.
 
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