Did Jesus really fulfill all of the laws???

Yodas_Prodigy

Well-known member
No it hasn't. In fact, even Jesus said that not even a brushstroke would pass away from the law as long until heaven and earth pass away. Have heaven and earth passed away? Nope.

You truly don't understand the New Covenant... The Mosaic Covenant expired... Hebrews 8:13 lets us know its impending expiration... Jesus brought a New Covenant. Salvation is by Grace through Faith in Christ.

John 1:17
English Standard Version
17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 7:22
This makes Jesus the guarantor of a better covenant.

Hebrews 8
1Now the point in what we are saying is this: we have such a high priest, one who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, 2 a minister in the holy places, in the true tent[a] that the Lord set up, not man. 3 For every high priest is appointed to offer gifts and sacrifices; thus it is necessary for this priest also to have something to offer. 4 Now if he were on earth, he would not be a priest at all, since there are priests who offer gifts according to the law. 5 They serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things. For when Moses was about to erect the tent, he was instructed by God, saying, “See that you make everything according to the pattern that was shown you on the mountain.” 6 But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second.

8 For he finds fault with them when he says:

“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah,
9 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers
on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt.
For they did not continue in my covenant,
and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws into their minds,
and write them on their hearts,
and I will be their God,
and they shall be my people.
11 And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor
and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
for they shall all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful toward their iniquities,
and I will remember their sins no more.”

13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
 

docphin5

Well-known member
Actually I keep the Mosaic laws all the time.

When a person says they keep the Law, it of course excludes those for the opposite sex, or for priests (if they aren't a kohan) and those which are impossible to keep. The fact that there is no temple for sacrifice means I am not obligated to give sacrifice. This really isn't rocket science stuff.
Thanks for confirming that the Mosaic laws have not been required for at least two thousand years. Therefore, since Gentiles having a moral conscious without it for this long time only proves they that they do not need the Mosaic Law ever again. Life goes forward not backward. We are supposed to learn from the past not return to it.
 

Open Heart

Well-known member
Since you wrote in English, both YP and I read what you wrote as if you were an English speaker. When you break the rules of the English language, it’s incumbent upon you to clarify the rules you have invented. When you don’t mean what you say, let us know. You can say anything you like, as long as we know you recognize that it is meaningless.
I am certified to teach English, and I made no English error. The error was on your part, thinking that a figurative remark was literal.
 

Open Heart

Well-known member
You truly don't understand the New Covenant... The Mosaic Covenant expired... Hebrews 8:13 lets us know its impending expiration... Jesus brought a New Covenant. Salvation is by Grace through Faith in Christ.

John 1:17
English Standard Version
17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 7:22
This makes Jesus the guarantor of a better covenant.

Hebrews 8
1Now the point in what we are saying is this: we have such a high priest, one who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, 2 a minister in the holy places, in the true tent[a] that the Lord set up, not man. 3 For every high priest is appointed to offer gifts and sacrifices; thus it is necessary for this priest also to have something to offer. 4 Now if he were on earth, he would not be a priest at all, since there are priests who offer gifts according to the law. 5 They serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things. For when Moses was about to erect the tent, he was instructed by God, saying, “See that you make everything according to the pattern that was shown you on the mountain.” 6 But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second.

8 For he finds fault with them when he says:

“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah,
9 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers
on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt.
For they did not continue in my covenant,
and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws into their minds,
and write them on their hearts,
and I will be their God,
and they shall be my people.
11 And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor
and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
for they shall all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful toward their iniquities,
and I will remember their sins no more.”

13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
You are new here, so I will very patiently explain. :)

Jews do not accept the New Testament as the word of God. You might as well quote the Quran or the Book of Mormon or Harry Potter. It just rolls off our back. If you want to reach us, you need to quote from our own scriptures, which is the Tanakh (Old Testament). It's just a much better strategy.

Because your post really was fundamentally just quotations from the New Testament, I didn't read it. Just as you would probably not read a post that predominantly quoted the Vedas.
 

Yodas_Prodigy

Well-known member
You are new here, so I will very patiently explain. :)

Jews do not accept the New Testament as the word of God. You might as well quote the Quran or the Book of Mormon or Harry Potter. It just rolls off our back. If you want to reach us, you need to quote from our own scriptures, which is the Tanakh (Old Testament). It's just a much better strategy.

Because your post really was fundamentally just quotations from the New Testament, I didn't read it. Just as you would probably not read a post that predominantly quoted the Vedas.

Hmmmmm.... You quoted Jesus.... The NT Bible.... So, I quoted more to NT to you.... I would read the Vedas to understand where the person quoting is coming from... and the compare it to scripture... That is what a good apologist does...
 

Open Heart

Well-known member
Hmmmmm.... You quoted Jesus.... The NT Bible.... So, I quoted more to NT to you.... I would read the Vedas to understand where the person quoting is coming from... and the compare it to scripture... That is what a good apologist does...
But it makes sense for me to quote Jesus to you, since YOU DO accept the New Testament as divine, similarly to the way I would quote the quran to a muslim. You are doing the opposite -- you are quoting text that I do NOT accept as divine.
 

Yodas_Prodigy

Well-known member
But it makes sense for me to quote Jesus to you, since YOU DO accept the New Testament as divine, similarly to the way I would quote the quran to a muslim. You are doing the opposite -- you are quoting text that I do NOT accept as divine.

And it makes sense for me to further quote the New Testament when someone errantly uses it to further their agenda...
I often smile when an unbeliever tries to quote scripture to me... They do it with such authority...
 

tbeachhead

Well-known member
I am certified to teach English, and I made no English error. The error was on your part, thinking that a figurative remark was literal.
Your proud comments highlight your skills, and underline your self-deception. You claimed Jesus did not literally fulfill each of the hundreds of laws and there…you drew conclusions.

It’s difficult enough to forgive when your opponent apologizes for his mistake. Far more difficult to forgive when your opponent was right and discovered your error.
 

Open Heart

Well-known member
And it makes sense for me to further quote the New Testament when someone errantly uses it to further their agenda...
I often smile when an unbeliever tries to quote scripture to me... They do it with such authority...
No, it is a terrible and stupid strategy to quote the NT to someone who does not accept it as an authoritative source, because it would mean that you are just spinning your wheels.
 

Open Heart

Well-known member
Your proud comments highlight your skills, and underline your self-deception. You claimed Jesus did not literally fulfill each of the hundreds of laws and there…you drew conclusions.

It’s difficult enough to forgive when your opponent apologizes for his mistake. Far more difficult to forgive when your opponent was right and discovered your error.
Yes at least you read me correctly -- I do indeed claim that Jesus did not fulfill all the messianic prophecies and therefore cannot be the messiah. Here are just three examples (and I need only list one to rule J out as messiah):
1. The messiah will usher in an era of peace between the nations. Jesus didn't do this.
2. The messiah will bring all the Jews in diaspora back to Eretz Yisrael. Jesus didn't do this.
3. The messiah will rule Israel from Jerusalem. Jesus did not do this.
 

Yodas_Prodigy

Well-known member
No, it is a terrible and stupid strategy to quote the NT to someone who does not accept it as an authoritative source, because it would mean that you are just spinning your wheels.

Acts 7:57
New King James Version
57 Then they (the Jews) cried out with a loud voice, stopped their ears...
 

Yodas_Prodigy

Well-known member
Yes at least you read me correctly -- I do indeed claim that Jesus did not fulfill all the messianic prophecies and therefore cannot be the messiah. Here are just three examples (and I need only list one to rule J out as messiah):
1. The messiah will usher in an era of peace between the nations. Jesus didn't do this.
2. The messiah will bring all the Jews in diaspora back to Eretz Yisrael. Jesus didn't do this.
3. The messiah will rule Israel from Jerusalem. Jesus did not do this.

All three are still future... And yes, we agree these three have not been fulfilled... Yet, there are about 290 other prophecies that he did fulfill... Born in Bethlehem, Born of a Virgin, descendent of David, The Crucifixion, etc etc etc

I might disagree with your wording of number 2. I think he will bring all chosen Israelites back to Israel.
 

Open Heart

Well-known member
All three are still future... And yes, we agree these three have not been fulfilled... Yet, there are about 290 other prophecies that he did fulfill... Born in Bethlehem, Born of a Virgin, descendent of David, The Crucifixion, etc etc etc

I might disagree with your wording of number 2. I think he will bring all chosen Israelites back to Israel.
Right. They haven't happened yet. They will happen in the future. This is how we know the messiah is yet to come.
 

Yodas_Prodigy

Well-known member
Right. They haven't happened yet. They will happen in the future. This is how we know the messiah is yet to come.

This is how we know that Messiah is to come again to rule and reign on Earth... He is ruling now at the side of the Father...
Once he places his enemies as his footstool, he shall then return...
 

Open Heart

Well-known member
This is how we know that Messiah is to come again to rule and reign on Earth... He is ruling now at the side of the Father...
Once he places his enemies as his footstool, he shall then return...
Sorry, but the only way we know someone is the messiah is if they keep ALL the prophecies. Jesus simply did not.
 

Open Heart

Well-known member
Hmmmm... That is New Testament... Did you go in and read that? BTW, I posted that because the ear plugging represents you... Also, those Jews killed a man...
Going by your own gospels, the Jews killed no one -- it was Pilate, the Roman prelate, that had the authority to execute Jesus. Washing hands or not, he is responsible, as a representative for the Roman empire.
 
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